Systemic Barriers to Higher Education is Shit2TalkAbout S3 EP 10
“You can start at the very bottom in education and with the right sort of mentors and guidance and, just the desire to learn and just be there, you can go to school.”
Episode Transcription
Jenn: Hello, hello, beautiful humans. Welcome to another episode of Shit You Don't Want to Talk About. Today we are welcoming Dr. James Piscali of Idaho State University. So please introduce yourself, James, and the shit you want to talk about.
James: Hi, happy to be here. Yes, I am James Piscali from Idaho State University.
James: I am the director of the Trio McNair Scholars Program, Dr. Ronald E. McNair Post Baccalaureate Scholars Program, um, at Idaho State University. And I have a background of research in, uh, the Deaf community, Deaf identity and accessibility as well. And again, happy to be here.
Jenn: Great. And what shit are we talking about?
James: Well, today, uh, we kind of want to talk about the sorts of populations that I deal with within the TRIO world that oftentimes get, um, just overlooked. And that's individuals that come from first generation, uh, limited income backgrounds that go, those that come from, uh, and those that are historically excluded or underrepresented in education and how, uh, there are barriers.
James: Inherent barriers and how difficult it is to navigate the education system because of that, um, and the sorts of reason why TRIO programs exist to help, uh, mitigate a lot of those, uh, challenges and barriers.
Jenn: Thank you. And y'all, this is an absolute treat. I have known James, we've known each other since high school.
Jenn: So I, I'm going to age us. So we've known each other like 20 years. Um,
James: long time.
Jenn: It is. And it's, it's exciting to hear where you're at now and the work you're doing because they're knowing each other in high school, eh, you kind of never know where somebody may end up with. There's so many different avenues and where life may take you back together.
Jenn: But also how. Did you go from, hey, we went to high school together and we kind of never talked again for a very long time to being the director doing this at ISU?
James: That's a great question because, uh, myself, I am a first-generation student and how we kind of define that within within the program.
James: Terminologies here to see, uh, you understand what I'm coming from is that first-generation students are those that, uh, weren't socialized to the education space because their parents haven't attained a degree or at least a four-year degree. Um, and so they're the first in their family to pursue education, right?
James: Um, to go for a degree. So, uh, coincidentally, when you actually met me, when you say that, uh, met around high school, I had actually dropped out of high school at that point. So I wasn't even in high school, dropped out, um, and got my GED. So I was a GED, uh, recipient, um, because of, uh, the military, the military actually paid for me to get my GED.
James: And I'm, Found myself going through the having, uh, no resources falling back on the only option that I had, which was military at the time. And, uh, found myself in the military and that gave me stable income, um, for me and my family. And I was able to sort of look elsewhere because I was no longer in that sort of survival mode, uh, panic of what am I going to do?
James: Right? Um, and so, um, I started looking at what's next, right? The military is a great option for that. Um, people make a really good career out of it. Um, but ultimately I was just wondering what's next for me. And I knew I liked teaching. Um, I liked sitting down with people and just conveying information and knowledge.
James: And so I was like, I think I'm going to go to school and become a teacher. And so I started going to school. Um. At distance, uh, while I was in the military doing night school, uh, basically community college type stuff. Uh, and I found that I really liked it. But what I started to notice was that there's a lot of things that I didn't understand about the education system, like applying for things like financial aid.
James: There were certain barriers to just the educational process that made it inherently more difficult for me to sort of navigate and understand things. Like, I didn't understand the importance of what a GPA was. I didn't know how, how big of a deal that would be, or, or how do you call out of like, if you're sick, how do you, how do you navigate that?
James: Right. Um, basic things like asking for extension of papers, right? How do you ask for accommodation in the classroom? Um, nevertheless, I kept going for school. Um, I got out of the military, came back here to Idaho. I'm, you know, uh, Home is always home. And so he came back here to Idaho State University and started going to school.
James: But again, not understanding how the system worked. I was a secondary education, excuse me, a secondary education major that ended up not understanding how that system works, switching over to be solely in the history department and, uh, ended up doing okay. There I am. I was constantly trying to navigate the system and what ended up actually saving me was I found my way into the political science department here and the faculty there were able to sort of take me in and mentor me and kind of, uh, socialize me to the space to a greater degree than what I was getting in, in the history department.
James: And because of that, I just, took that and ran with it. Uh, I remember the night, like the week of graduation or the last semester of my undergraduate degree, uh, I was at a bowling event with one of my advisors in political science and they were asking me what I was wanting to do, um, with education. I was like, well, I want to teach, but I don't know like what, I don't know what the education, um, just like the profession, like the hiring right now is like, and I'm kind of worried about it.
James: And they're like, well, you should go to graduate school. No one had ever explained to me what graduate school was. I, as a first-generation student, I didn't know what that was. I just knew it was for people that were way smarter than me. That was the sort of rule. Uh, and the fact that somebody was like, you should go do this thing.
James: I think you could do it. I was like, well, okay. So then I had conversations with my spouse and we're like, Hey, uh, you know, uh, they think I should go to graduate school. What do you think? And then being like, well, I don't know how we're going to pay for it, but let's figure it out. And then, uh, I ended up getting funding.
James: I applied into graduate school, got into it, and just, uh, stayed there. I got my master's, uh, in political science and then rolled right into a doctoral program in political science. And just kept going because of good mentors that were able to sort of, uh, scaffold me through the education process, which is very important.
James: So that's kind of how I got there. I, I kind of stumbled my way through it. I, uh, I did a lot of figuring it out on my own. I went from, uh, Again, coming from a background where education was not the priority, my family, uh, basically had no sort of, um, idea about how to navigate the education system themselves, and neither did they encourage me to go into education.
James: Um, I was basically, you're going to get a, you're going to get a job with the name on your shirt. You're going to be the manager at a Walmart. You're going to be happy, right? Um, So me going to education was not in the cards for me to that sort of environment to actually having and meeting people in the education system that I saw potential where nobody else did if that makes sense.
Jenn: It does. And, and thank you. And it's, it's a great call out because when I say we met in high school, I always just mean the age range because I'm like, I don't, I don't always remember because I also dropped out of high school, but my mom had me going to so many. summer school, um, classes that I had enough credits that they were like, Hey, we'll let you walk with your class.
Jenn: But you're, it's like I dropped out, but I still graduated in a very, very big loophole. And I say that because there were, I can relate so much on having that scarcity of not being able to. Really focus on education and, uh, my family, a lot of it was like, you have to go to school. Like that's what's going to save you.
Jenn: Like, that's how you're going to fix your life. And for me, I've, I've gone to probably five different schools, different silos of schools. I've gone to, uh, I guess maybe six, cause I think I started at, I did some college courses when I was a senior, ISU, which Idaho State University is a university. Um, when I was in Arizona, the first, time around or the second time around.
Jenn: I went to community colleges. Um, then I went to the University of Phoenix, which was an accelerated courses and all in person at the time. Then I went to Purdue and then I went to back to online courses at some point and y'all school is not for is what I found out. And something that We talked about, about like stumbling our way through.
Jenn: It wasn't until my early thirties, so maybe like four years ago that I found out that I was ADHD and dyslexic and that my learning style is I'm not very good at that structured learning because I am a person that needs to ask a lot of in between questions. And for the longest time. I thought I was so stupid because I couldn't figure out how to get school to work.
Jenn: Like I kept paying for schooling because that was supposed to be my, what would make it better is school. And I mentioned this because y'all I'm 30, 000 in debt of student loans without a degree. And a big reason that I'm excited to talk about this today with you, James, is they are. There's so many different paths somebody can take and if I had somebody that was walking me through this, like, I still don't know if I'd ever go through school, but I'd have at least a lot more chance of being successful at completing a degree and sticking to something and that's something that, uh, I, I hear a lot from when degrees were required for school or for jobs, I'd be like, they didn't even like, like what they did, but they got a degree.
Jenn: So they stuck it out. Like, they're not, but it taught a lot of people how to learn. And that is something that I, Y'all, when we talk about GPA for grade point average, um, it's, so a 4. 0 means you got all straight A's and it's like, there's different ways to get around it, but it's like the best of the best.
Jenn: Um, I graduated with a 1. 6 GPA. So there were a lot of missed classes and a lot of not turned-in homework and a lot of talking. So these are all different ways that I want to bring it up because if I were to go look at school even today, or there's parents out there that want to go back to school and make a better life for their children or their families or things like that, Where does somebody even start?
Jenn: Like, I want to go to school and then, but for what?
James: 100%. And, uh, I mean, thank you for sharing your experience there because it's, it's, it's very valuable and it's one of those things that you're not alone. And it's very common to start school and stop school. Um, and I like that you said that school is not for you.
James: But also, if you listen to what you're saying there, in terms of the fact that you have neurodivergence, that you have, uh, you know, documented, uh, you know, learning disabilities, right, in terms of, of, of reading, that these are inherent barriers in the system that are not, they're out of your control. So when you say school is not for you, really, The framing that you should have at the perspective is, is that school is not for you because the system itself is inherently built without you in mind, and it has nothing to do with you and your learning style, your, um, your capabilities to, to absorb information, right?
James: Your, um, your neural divergence and has nothing to do with that and more to do with the systemic barriers to a system that was designed for the social default, which is not people that have disabilities. And, um. Things like neurodivergence, so what I typically deal with on a day-to-day basis is this sort of nexus, this sort of, um, uh, sort of, uh, intersection, if you will, between a lot of these things of disability and, and a lot of the students that I deal with within first generation, uh, populations and those that come from underrepresented backgrounds is oftentimes they have Undiagnosed, uh, neurodivergence, undiagnosed learning disabilities, even, and because they're not socialized to the space, they don't know how to ask for help.
James: Right? So it extends beyond just how do I get an education. How do I maintain and be successful throughout it? Right? And so, because of that, what I typically tell people is to find the TRIO people. Right. Find organizations like TRIO. Um, because TRIO, if you're unaware, is an umbrella term for a series of federally funded national programs.
James: They're all over the country. They're, um, they're federal grants that are designed, designed specifically to help students navigate their barriers, those barriers. So getting into education. Right? Uh, in maintaining yourself throughout it. So we have what's called pre-collegiate programs. So programs that are designed to get adult learners into the educational space, right?
James: Like deciding what school do I go for? Do I go for a community college or do I go for a state school or should I shoot for the moon and go for a place like, you know, Purdue or something along those lines, right? Um, and so those programs are very much designed for that. And again, adult learners can be anybody that is, um, like you, that's looking to potentially go into school sort of situation or somebody that was, uh, in a situation of incarceration, that they're being reintegrated in society and looking for educational opportunities to sort of change their circumstances or, or individuals, again, like me that came out of the military and didn't have any resources, right?
James: So we have programs in TRIO that help people. Specifically, that are specifically designed to help people get an education, and then we quick question.
Jenn: And this is something that I, um, actually 2 questions that and what is the difference between community university online? And also you talked about, uh, graduate school.
Jenn: Could you take a step back and explain those to us really quick.
James: Absolutely. I'm happy to. Um, because again, that's one of those hidden curriculum things. It's like it's an unwritten understanding or an unwritten language to education is even what do all these terms mean, right? So I'm glad you pointed it out.
James: So a community college is typically a community-based smaller school. Right. That usually focuses on technical trades and two-year level degrees. So associate-level degrees. So you'll see a lot of things like nursing a lot of things like, um, engineering or like, uh, electricians, right? You'll see a lot of community colleges as sort of the starting point for a lot of, um, students going into education that may not necessarily have the grade point average to go into a larger university.
James: Um, and so oftentimes tuition is lower in a community college. Right. And so that's also, it's a lower cost barrier. So a lot of students from limited income backgrounds find themselves within the community college system. But inherently, they're, uh, two-year programs, technical programs, uh, those, those sorts of things are what you're going to find in the community college space and their community colleges because they're embedded within that community.
James: Right. Very much so. And the students that are typically going there are not coming from, um, out of state. They're usually those that are within that community framework. Uh, and then you also have like two years, uh, schools that are again are colleges, but they are again focused very much on that two-year trajectory.
James: So associate-level degrees. Um, then you have, uh, four-year university levels. So, uh, state schools, which are, uh, again, like where you're at in Arizona State is a state school. Idaho State is a state school, right? Uh, and we focus on, uh, predominantly, uh, 4 years. So you can come here for a 4-year level degree, which is a bachelor's, right?
James: We have associate-level degrees as well. Here. We have technical programs through our, uh, college of technology. Uh, and then we also have graduate level. bachelor's degree is what's called graduate school. Um, so after you obtain your bachelor's degree, so you go to a university, you get a four-year degree.
James: There's another tier within the education system. That is a master's, a PhD, uh, uh, uh, what's called a juris doctorate or a JD, which is a law degree, um, a medical degree, like a. medical doctor degree. That's all that sort of fits within the framework of what we consider gradual level education is anything above a bachelor's degree.
James: Um, and there's nuance even then of, of the breakdown of what type of degree to get, right? So some programs and some professions, uh, they only offer and only require you to have a master's degree. So a master's degree is, uh, again, another two and a half years of schooling. So you have your four-year degree and then you have.
James: add on to that a master's degree of two and a half years. And then you have a doctorate degree, which again, um, roughly about two to half, uh, two and a half to four years, depending on, uh, dissertation works. Hopefully, that explains that.
Jenn: It does. It does. Uh, and the, Other part that I mean, also dissertation is what like the giant test at the end of your PhD to be able to become a doctor.
James: Kind of, um, you're on the right track again.
James: This is, uh, this is all stuff that I had to learn as well. I'm coming to the system and not knowing these rules is a dissertation is, uh, essentially a culminating, uh, research paper of, of, uh, Like what you're interested in and what your contribution to the field of study is. And it's usually published.
James: It's usually you have to defend it, uh, to a committee of, um, of people within your department. Right? So they'll look at your work and they'll tell you if it's good enough. Um, that sort of thing. So it's, it's less of a test. Um, it can't, there can be like a, what's called a capstone, which is more of a, um, sort of a comprehensive, uh, sort of aspect.
James: But the dissertation itself is a research paper, uh, research article that is, uh, originally done. So you do it yourself, you're collecting the data, you're doing all that, right? Um, with the prospect of eventually publishing that in an academic journal. And that's kind of your, uh, Again, you're sort of, uh, in cap to your education as a doctor.
Jenn: Thank you. And to go back to when you were talking about when people are learning, like they're with their dis, if they're finding out that they have a learning disability or like how to find resources there, another question that came up for me, um, and I think it will still lead into what you were talking about of why are there so many courses outside of somebody's major?
Jenn: Thank you. Because that really affects somebody and by this, um, for those who may not, uh, know much about, um, a lot of these, um, school education system in the U. S., and James, please correct me on this if there's an add to it, is you choose a major and a major and a minor, um, um, A major is like your main focus of a topic and these are predefined items that you can choose within an overall subject.
Jenn: So, uh, for example, I went to school for computer science for a hot minute and that was in the mathematics and science division, but it was a specialized in computer science or, but at the same time, I still had to take English. I still have to take writing. I still had to take mathematics, um, and vice versa. I did go to school for psychology and yes, it is still within that science realm.
Jenn: Yet having to do a lot of like mathematics and psychology don't always overlap. Same as Trying to go to school for journalism. Why am I still doing math courses? I say all of this because it was very distracting trying to keep up all the different studies. And. Does that present, still present, because I don't know how the education system works now, um, does that still present to choosing people's courses, choosing people's majors, and also having to create their own roadmap and, and their learning how they learn?
James: I'm glad you brought that up because it's one of those things that it's a, it's a hotly sort of debated topic, right? So, um, what you're really referring to is especially at the, the four-year degree level. Um, you have what's called general, um, studies or general requirements, right? So objectives, so here at IU you look at your course, uh, degree plan, and you have courses that are outside of the major that you have.
James: So you, again, like you said, you have math courses, right? You have English courses, you have these, these core courses. Um, and then we even offer things like we need, uh, you need to meet a social studies or a cultural objective or something along those lines. So oftentimes you'll find yourself in again, a political science course or a sociology course or even psychology, right?
James: And those courses are designed specifically with the idea in mind that, uh, A, it, it gives you a more well-rounded sort of understanding of just education in general. Um, but then also, one thing that I often find is when students come to university or come to school, they already have an idea in their mind of what they want to do for that major.
James: Right? But I try to flip that on its head a little bit when I talk to people in that you should come to the college, even though it's very expensive, you should come to college not knowing what you want to do. Because the general studies allows you to take a wide variety of courses so you can figure that out.
James: Right? Um, with that being said, uh, somebody that may be particularly neurodivergent or, uh, may need a structured plan to figure out what they want and what they need to do in order to be successful and to get through a degree. Uh, that's where advising comes in. Right? Like, really, I, I, I, Really want to emphasize the importance of, uh, advisors to sort of help you sort of handhold you through that process.
James: Right? So a little sort of background for myself is, is that I, again, I started in the history department and I love history. I still love history to this day. I, a lot of history informs my research and political science. But I found myself taking because of general studies, uh, it was called a voting and public opinion was the class and voting and public opinion is, uh, it's a political science class and in that class, the professor, of course, inevitably became my advisor and my mentor in political science.
James: But, uh, as an assignment for that class, we. We're tasked with creating a survey, right? Fielding that survey. So having people take the survey and then taking the data from that survey and analyzing that in a statistical model, right? So that sounds huge, like a big deal, right? But, um, It clicked something in my brain that I was like, holy cow.
James: First of all, I thought political science was just a bunch of boring people arguing about politics, right? I had no idea what political science was. And in that class, I was like, holy cow, there is legitimate science to political science. Who would have thought? And so because of that, I fell in love with it.
James: I enjoy doing the survey. I enjoyed fielding it. I enjoyed analyzing the stuff, right? Meeting with my advisor and her showing me, uh, the sort of statistical readout and going, Oh, look at this. You have a statistical significance here. That means that you have something here. And then telling me, Oh, you should take this research to a conference and present it.
James: And I was like, wow. What you want me to take this assignment and take it to something that we're professional political sciences, uh, scientists are that are they're going to look at it. You think it's that good? Right? And so the reason why I point that out is, is that those general education classes, while they can kind of be tangential to what your interests are, like, if you're doing computer science, you'd be like, why am I taking an English class?
James: Why am I learning about Shakespeare? When really, I want to be learning about, uh, Okay. I don't know, C or something. I don't know. You tell me what's in the computer science world or, um, because it's not, not my wheelhouse. But what ends up happening is, is you develop interest that you didn't even know you had, right?
James: And so that's why I kind of make that argument that uh, those sorts of general studies classes are important in that process because you should really come to university with a mindset that, You're open to different ideas, but then also to your point, and this is where that aspect of accessibility comes in, Jen, is that oftentimes students come to university and they don't know how to navigate the system.
James: And so you mentioned trying to create that road map on their own, right? Uh, students that come from first-generation backgrounds oftentimes don't aren't clued into the rules. And so they're trying to figure out the education system inherently on their own. But if you I advise anybody that's coming to school is if you have a major, right?
James: Like if you for you put a computer science or psychology or wherever, uh, is to go to that department and shop around, right? You don't want to just go in there and buy the 1st mentor. You you find, but you want to go in there and find somebody you click with and. Like sit down with them and have them as your advisor, and they'll go with you over your schedule, and they'll help you try to push you through the system, uh, line by line and go, Hey, you need to take this course and this course and this course, uh, and they'll help walk you through that process.
James: And that's a little bit more scaffolding, especially if you're just completely oblivious to how do I navigate. If that makes sense.
Jenn: It does, it does. And, um, just to, uh, for everybody to know, I, yes, I am in the tech world now. I did not know I was dyslexic. Um, when I took c plus plus, that was the course I took.
Jenn: And y'all, I paid somebody on Craigslist to do my homework for me. So I would pass the class and be able to take other classes. I was trying to work the system to help me get through things because I think when I took c plus plus, it was finally like I was on my English major.
Jenn: I really like the idea of people going with an open mind and I like the idea of people finding advisors and mentors. I, from my own experience and, and I can only imagine for others that if this is what is needed for me to be able to provide for my family. And I know I feel like I'm being very like argumentative, but I'm like, answer these questions.
Jenn: But if this, um, If I'm like, okay, somebody's telling me I have to have a four year degree, um, to me that may feel like I'm wasting time because that's how I'm going to get more money for my children or more money for my family. And again, like, as I can only imagine as a parent, they may not have time to go.
Jenn: Network and try to find an advisor or things like that with those being said, I want to put those on pause because I, I think taking a step back. And you mentioned about finding trio, um, if I'm like, cool, I want to go to school. I don't know what I want to go to school for. I'm 30. How old am I? I think I'm 35 right now, maybe 36.
Jenn: I don't remember. Um, But if I wanted to go to school right now, where does someone start? Because I feel like all these other questions will come up and can be answered. And I think it, it's what I think is the worst answer yet to answer. So for so many things is it depends. Where does somebody even start?
Jenn: Like, do I go to ISU's website and go, I'm going to click apply. Do I show up at school and go, where are, do I talk to an admin? Do I, who, who do I talk to? Like. If you were to tell somebody to start, where would you? Where would you go?
James: That is again. Your questions are spot on and I am happy to address the other portion of that as well.
James: Um, if you would like regarding the, the, the, the access and of the, the pending anxiety or the, uh, the, the anxiety that 1 feels trying to navigate a system, knowing that ultimately, it's going to resort, you're going to be paying a lot of money in the system in order to get more money. Right? So I totally get that.
James: Um, so I can go back to that, but to your point of how do you start? So when I say find TRIO, um, basically what I'm meaning is, okay, first things first, you have to decide what, what is within your, what is within your control and what is, what is within your boundary, right? Um, for some people that, that don't have a whole lot of resources, uh, they don't have a whole lot of, uh, let's say that you're in an area that a school is not close by, right?
James: That can happen. Uh, maybe online is an option for you, right? Um, And I say that with a very strong caveat that there's a lot of predatory programs that are online that you kind of have to, to sift through. And that's very difficult. So when I say online, what I mean is try to seek out online programs that are associated with major, uh, universities and so forth.
James: Right? So Arizona, uh, uh, University of Arizona and kind of in your neck of the woods, uh, we, we mentioned by Tucson, right. Uh, has a great. Level of online programs that I know people that are here in Idaho that attend University of Arizona. Right? So that may be an option, but you have.
Jenn: Really quick y'all. All I Googled because I just did the Googles was trio for college. That's all I did. I ask because sometimes I can Google shit and nothing comes up. It's very frustrating. But, uh, it came up with, um, the actual, uh, U. S. Department of Education website. And yes, these websites can be very, very confusing. So I'm excited that to hear more about how people can go, but it's a very quick Google.
Jenn: Please continue.
James: I'm actually going to give you an even easier Google here.
Jenn: Yay.
James: Yes. Yes. So, uh, real quick. So online may be an option for you. You also have to assess, again, like, okay, if I want to go in person. So for me personally, going and being physically in a classroom was the best way for me to learn.
James: So I couldn't do online. I tried to do online and it went terrible for me. Right. Um, I crashed and burned very quickly. But, um, So in person was for me. So then you start to identify, okay, well, uh, again, do I, is it more within my means and resources at the moment to go to something close by, or should I go elsewhere, right?
James: Should I go to another state? Do I, if I have a family here, can I uproot my family and move to a location for that resource, right? Um, And you kind of have to gauge that. So really go through that checklist and figure out what's within your means and what's realistic. That's the first thing I tell people is you have to make that assessment.
James: So let's say that, uh, that Jen is investigating going to, uh, going to, uh, A university that's that's somewhat close. We won't use ASU because we don't we don't want you partying. We want to let's let's do the University of Arizona, right? So the Google search that I want you to try is type in University of Arizona TRIO.
James: So basically the university that you're interested in going, that's within your means and capabilities of attending with TRIO attached.
Jenn: Nice. Yeah, it definitely came up.
James: So, and if you actually look, uh, fourth search down Arizona state actually has a TRIO as well. Right. Uh, and so. Uh, if you click that first thing, so, uh, University of Arizona, I think is, uh, what is the top one has what's called the Thrive Center.
James: And basically you'll find these fancy terms that are associated. So ours is, uh, housed within what's called access and opportunities, uh, which is within the house of academic affairs. There's a whole lineage. It's kind of like game of Thrones. You have to figure out where people are, but, uh, if you click into it, it'll actually tell you more about what Trio is and specifically this program called student support services and what student support services is a program is designed to do Is to again help you get into education and help you be successful through your first four years of education So if you're attaining a bachelor's they provide things like tutoring they show you how to uh, apply for financial aid They they teach you how to apply for scholarships So if you're struggling to pay for school, they show you how to do that.
James: They also provide workshops like financial literacy see Is a big one that we do here. We call it money on the run. Uh, and it essentially teaches you how to budget, right? Uh, and so they provide a lot of resources and one-to-one advising and mentorship. So you have an advisor that you can go to and plan your schedule with every semester.
James: So that's kind of if you clicked on that, you can kind of see that there is a trio that is inherently at. University of Arizona, and it has the website and it has the contact information. And so what I recommend to people is to, again, assess where your limitations are. If you have to go online, TRIO services is a little harder to deal, but You can do something that is kind of creative, where you find a TRIO service that's local to you at your local university, and you can have conversations and talk to them, right, um, at the same time of taking, like, there's no TRIO program is going to turn you away from information solely because you're doing an online program.
James: Um, at least I certainly don't. I just have to do it for free because you're not a student of mine, but I'm more than happy to do it. Again, if you're going to a, uh, let's say that University of Arizona is where you're going to want to go, you would do that search with TRIO in mind and see if they have a TRIO program.
James: And then, uh, reach out to these people first and go, Hey, listen, I'm interested in going to do a degree in psychology, uh, at University of Arizona. And I'm, I just am at a loss of how to get into the system and like, what do I even do and they're going to have that conversation with you and they're going to be able to help you through that, especially if you're coming to them and you inherently don't know how to navigate the system.
James: Most likely, you are a TRIO eligible student. You just don't know. I'm 1 of the things for I will point this out. Uh. Let's see if they actually have their eligibility list on here, but, um, one of the criteria for eligibility for, uh, SSS or student support services is those with, uh, with a diagnosed disability.
James: Right? So that can be neurodivergence. That can be, um, a documented learning disability like dyslexia, right? Um, me in the case of hard of hearing, like, I would qualify for TRIO services without even necessarily being a first-generation student. Just the fact that I'm navigating barriers if that makes sense.
James: So that's what I recommend to answer your question. Uh, when I say find your TRIO people, this is what I mean. It's just, you find the place, you identify what's within your means, and You Google that in relation to TRIO.
Jenn: I appreciate this. And I, I know that we're, we talked about so many different things we could go into, but we're also running lower on time to, to bring him back a bit, uh, just because I, I won't be able to go through as much as we were hoping for. So maybe we'll convince you to come back for an episode too.
Jenn: Um, absolutely. I'm happy.
James: Happy to be here and happy to come back.
Jenn: When people are going through, um, so we talked about, like, how people get in and TRIO is a great resource. Great. Um, and I think it would be helpful to go back to understanding there is a pressure of time and money. To a four-year degree compared to like a trade school is specific in a certain area.
Jenn: Um, so just as an example, and, and my, world is there are what's considered coding boot camps. Those are more like a trade school. They are X amount of weeks and all you're going to do is learn to code, um, to, for, to become like a computer programmer or a software engineer. And those are, all you do is code.
Jenn: But then if you go to school for computer science for a four year degree, you're not going to code the entire time. You are going to go to other. Um, courses and things like that. And how do people handle the pressure or choose between the two and what might be best for them, especially if a trade school doesn't exist for what they want to go into?
James: Yeah. So there's a lot of things here that we could talk about. Um, one thing that I want to talk about is, is, um, of course, I'm biased and that I want you to come to the university and get a bachelor's degree or, Even come into a program like mine, like the McNair program, and go on to get a graduate level degree.
James: I could, I could cite statistic after statistic that shows that first-generation students, and especially those that come from underrepresented backgrounds, are not, surprise, surprise, represented that much in higher education. So your likelihood of seeing a professor that is coming from the same background as you is very, very low.
James: Right. We talk about diversity initiatives and stuff like that at universities, um, but ultimately the faculty that you're dealing with oftentimes don't reflect the diversity that you're trying to pull into your students as well. Um, and so that becomes an issue, but, um, I also want to point out here that education in terms of a bachelor's degree is not the path for everyone.
James: Right? Uh, it's clearly you're, you're doing an amazing show and you're doing amazing work, Jen, and you've carved that out out of your experience and the, um, the knowledge that you've gained in the education you've gained along the way. But that doesn't necessarily mean you need a bachelors to do that, right?
James: And so, uh, for some people, depending on their profession, you know, you hated the it's depends sort of answer. But sometimes it does depend. It depends on your field of like what you're interested in doing. Whereas like computers, computer science, stuff like that. A bachelor's degree may not necessarily be what's required to be successful in your industry.
James: What I tell people is, is that, uh, Department of Waiver Statistics. Overwhelmingly overwhelmingly show that the higher that you have for educational attainment, the less likely of unemployment, the the more likely that you're able to earn money, right? A higher degree of pay, right? And command a higher degree of pay.
James: So getting an education and the more education you get, whether it's a, an associate's, a bachelor's, a a, master's a, a PhD, a doctorate. Ultimately, that trajectory allows you to command and negotiate a higher salary, but also you're less likely to be unemployed. Right? Um, it is a pretty, pretty easy Department of Labor statistics to find if you Google that.
James: Um, but. Additionally, that's also field-specific, like in your world, it may be that career progression is more based off of merit and more based off of experience and certifications, right? Like knowing something like a particular forming of a form of coding, right? Whereas for me, political science, uh, anything below a doctorate, oftentimes you're less marketable.
James: Right. And so it makes more sense to go up to that higher level of education. So it just depends. But what I would say, somebody that's trying to navigate that conversation of, of what level is right for me, should I go to university or go to college? Or should I get the certification? Is maybe, and again, I, I, I am a person that is a professional.
James: All about research and finding people out that are smart on it, but, uh, connecting with podcasts like yours, right? That talk about all these different things and, and finding voices that can help explain, uh, the process a little bit more and sort of be a soundboard for your ideas. So. If you're going, if you're like, I'm really interested in computer science, right?
James: Something like your, uh, your tech tips, uh, stuff that you've been doing, right? Uh, where you talk a lot about a lot of different issues within the tech industry, that might be a medium that they can kind of get those questions answered, right? Or go to, um, again, go to your, uh, uh, resource where you're looking at those certifications and try to meet people to have some more certifications and go, Hey, uh, do you think, uh, If I get the certification, am I going to be able to move up in the chain?
James: Right. Have those conversations with people and you can do that on the line and you can do that in person. I personally like to do things in person, um, with the occasional, uh, chat with, uh, old friends online as well, but.
Jenn: I appreciate that. And it's, it's something that it. Finding and it sounds like trio may also help with this is having those conversations of discussing what might be the best bed of like what someone may need to do.
Jenn: Uh, it's. I used to have a show called Teach Gen Tech where I was, I'm a very much hands on person, yet if I don't have somebody around to be like, help me fill in the gaps, it can be really, really hard to learn something. So I started a live stream called Teach Gen Tech and I was like, yo, I'm just going to live stream me learning from an expert.
Jenn: And that worked for me and people really excited about it. And it was, Yet, that's not going to be for everybody. Not everyone wants to have these types of conversations or fail horribly online in front of other people, which is also really fun to do too. It's, it's, it's definitely something that it's nice to hear where people can think about these things.
Jenn: And, um, These are questions that somebody can start to ask themselves when they're thinking about going to school or if they've never thought about going to school and the possibilities that are there. And before I go back to like the networking and finding an advisor and those types of things, are there any questions that you specifically wanted us to, that I didn't ask you that you think I should have?
James: So here's one thing that I do want to bring up. Um, it's something that I want to make very clear. So, um, again, in my own educational journey, I started as a, as a college, uh, college, a high school dropout, uh, a GED recipient, uh, my undergraduate, because you shared your, uh, your GPA, my undergraduate GPA prior to going to graduate school was 2.
James: 6. So, very low, right? And I still was able to go to graduate school, and I was still able to get a doctorate. Right, so. I really want to emphasize that if you're going to that mindset of, Hey, uh, I'm not sure if school is for me or I tried school and it's not for me. Right. Or, um, I didn't do very well at it.
James: Just know that a, you're not alone and look up things like imposter syndrome. Right? It's a big thing that we find within the educational spaces is a barrier and challenge for people coming into it that historically are not represented in the space. Right. But also. Again, you can start at the very bottom in education and with the right sort of mentors and guidance and, uh, just the desire to learn and just be there.
James: You can go to school. School is for you. The system isn't, but education and information, and knowledge is yours. You just have to, you just have to top it, tap into things like TRIO in order to really get those resources to get the, you know, the opportunities necessary to make it happen.
Jenn: Thank you for that.
Jenn: That is a great call out. It's, it's something that
Jenn: I feel like a lot of people give, like, Lose hope on that there is a possibility of doing these things and how to navigate it that I'm, I'm grateful that you mentioned that that it's just, and it's, I think it's a really cool reference of you. When you dropped out, like you found resources that helped you get your GED and you were able, it probably wasn't the easiest at times, but you were able to eventually find advisors and be able to find people to talk to.
Jenn: And when And a big reason that I did want to bring this up on finding advisors is I personally am very much the person that I'm like, okay, if they don't know the answer, I'm going to find somebody that does. And I'm going to ask around enough until I find somebody that easiest way to say it is that I vibe with, if I'm like, yo, I've talked to you.
Jenn: We'll give this as an example. If I've talked to many advisors at schools and trying to get into a school, trying to figure out schooling, trying to figure out what I want to do with my bachelor's degree. If I feel the intuition that this is something that I really want to do, continuing to ask people.
Jenn: Is there someone that I can ask about, or is there somebody that you would suggest I talk to? Has been a big key in finding the right people to talk to. If someone is just going and they've figured out their schedule, they have their major, how would you suggest somebody finds an advisor? Especially in bigger universities where there might be one professor to a hundred students.
James: It's a great point. Um, yeah, it's, it's difficult at times. It's, it's, again, we're dealing with a system that is not inherently built with you in mind. I mean, education in America, um, historically is, has been something that has favored elites and favored people that have education in their background. So people like you and I.
James: Uh, are navigating a system that was not built for us in mind, especially you even more so, um, we can either add a gendered lens to it, right? And that you being, uh, a woman, especially a woman in tech, right, is inherently An anomaly to a system that wasn't designed for you, but to find those advisors. Let's say that you have, um, like you said, a major, you know what you want to do.
James: Um, I, so there's, let's specify here. So oftentimes when you come to university, there's what's called central advising and they're kind of like the all-encompassing. You come to the university and they'll just advise you on your schedule and how to get started when you have a major. Okay. Like, uh, like for me, political science, right?
James: What you want to find is an advisor within your department. And like you said, oftentimes in bigger departments, they're going to have a lot of students. But the way you do that is you go to your department, right? And you start, um, obviously taking classes. And really quickly, uh, you'll start to notice, like for me again, when I took voting and public opinion, I clicked right away with that professor.
James: I was like, holy cow. First off, you are an amazing human being. And I'm so glad that I have you as a, as a voice in this room, but also. Like, just the way that you teach makes sense to me. And so finding those voices within your department that speak to your learning style and your personality is just as important, um, as getting good information.
James: Right. And so for me going to that department, taking classes, talking with professors, it's really hard for students to get over that nerve of talking to a professor. But I promise you, if you have conversations where people, um, We're human beings, just like students. And especially when you show up and you start engaging with us, like, I was really interested in this lecture or whatever, like immediately the nerd in the, in that, uh, professor comes out and he's like, Oh my God, you're like, you're very, you're interested in what I'm interested in.
James: Cool. And you'll start to find common ground in that person. And so when you've built that rapport and you find that person that clicks with your learning style and your personality, that's who you want as your mentor. Cause then like, Hey, listen. Would you mind being my advisor and asking that question?
James: It's kind of like dating. Finding an advisor in education is like dating. You start off, you test the water, right? You have a couple drinks at the bar, you see where that goes. And then after that, you try to take it to the next level. And you go, Hey, we're really clicking. Would you mind being my advisor?
James: And then if they, if they clicking with you, then they'll, they'll take that time. That's harder to do. And like you said, in those classes that are really big. So what I recommend is there's gonna be a variety of classes. So your general studies classes, classes that everybody has to take for their degree, those are going to be bigger.
James: So you could have like 30, 50, hundreds of students, those smaller classes. So, like, for instance, voting in public opinion. I keep going back to that as an example, but voting in public opinion only had 15 students. So now I'm one of 15 people in the room that I can bug that professor. And then I am able to build that relationship.
James: But it's important that you start talking to faculty. When you do go to school, that's the key. That's what a lot of people are missing. Oftentimes you go to a class, you go there, you take your notes, you take the test, and then you go home. And then that's the last time you see your professor. So we kind of have to change our mindset, especially as first generation students and students that are not accustomed to the education environment is having conversations with professors.
James: And. Being okay with making a fool out of yourself. Like you're talking about making a fool of yourself on the internet, being okay of, of realizing you don't know everything. Clearly, you're a student, your professor knows that you don't know everything because you're a student. So, uh, it's okay if you don't know everything, so be comfortable with being wrong.
James: And have that conversation.
Jenn: I love that. Thank you. The, something that came to mind to add is, um, a lot, uh, if you're afraid of speaking to the faculty, you can also, um, like after class or something like that, you can also possibly start with a ta, which is a teaching assistant. Bigger classes, a lot of times have those also pay attention to your professor's office hours.
Jenn: And one that I think really, really helps, especially if you're not meeting people that you vibe with, because. At least I know my experience in tech and that there were a lot of grumpy old dudes in, you know, as professors that I'm like, you're not really my vibe, but going, Hey, I'm working on X, Y, Z. Is there someone you suggest I reach out to?
Jenn: Is there somewhere I can do more research? Gives them, wants them to help you instead of just asking someone to do it or explain it for you, you're trying to get your own resources. And, and that change has helped so much with going, this person may not be The answer, but can give me an avenue to who I need to meet.
James: That's an excellent point. Yes. Um, as a person that, uh, that was uh, myself, uh, 100%, uh, try to talk to the T. A's. Um, they may be, uh, because they're graduate students, uh, and they're usually. Busy people and oftentimes they're teaching courses themselves, but it's kind of again a less pressure environment or less pressure sort of interaction is talking to a T.
James: A. And I can tell you from the T. A. Perspective. If you come to a T. A. And you're like interested in your in your like on it. We're having conversations with that professor to you. We're like, Hey, you know, Jen in that class. She's really smart. She's really on it. I think we need to pay attention to her. And then that's how you build that relationship.
James: And then after a while, you'll probably start to notice that professor is, is, is noticing a little bit more in the class. Um, because it's all about standing out. Uh, the other part that you talked about there is, and I really like this. That you were talking about, like, there's disgruntled, grumpy old dudes, right?
James: It's every, every major, every field has that. Um, and it, that's even a more difficult power dynamic again, when you are a female in that environment of that interaction of, of oftentimes those grumpy old dudes are not taking you seriously because of your gender. And so it can be a difficult interaction.
James: The fact that you really hit. The, uh, hit home that idea of like, they may be a stepping stone to the person that you're getting information. So you could be like, Hey, who do I need to talk to? Because I'm really interested in X. Hey, I'm having difficulty with this, this particular part of coding. Who would you recommend?
James: Or who should I read in order to get smart on this? That is an excellent way to do it. So.
Jenn: Thanks. And yeah, it's, uh, it's something that, that last part is something. that I suggest to a lot of people who don't see people that look like them. So if they don't look like you, bring up the conversation if you're not that way, if you're not comfortable with asking them for help themselves.
Jenn: And I know that we have Going a little over today, but we are, we have a ton left for another episode. Any words of wisdom that you would give yourself or give those going through this?
James: Keep going. And you matter, uh, whether you, um, are struggling through education, whether you're learning a new profession or whether you're just trying to make it through, you matter and you are worthy of all of these things.
James: So, um, and I would tell that to everybody. And again, um, if you're. In need of help, mentorship, friendship, uh, any of this information, um, you can consider me one of those mentors. Um, and so yeah, you can always reach out to me.
Jenn: And how do people reach out to you?
James: You can reach out to me a couple of ways. You can reach out to me, um, at James Pascali.
James: So my first name, last name at isu. edu. You can reach out to me there. You can also reach out to me from, uh, Idaho State University TRIO website. I have contact information there in terms of my office phone number. And, uh, yeah.
Jenn: Yay. And last but not least, what is something that you're grateful for?
James: I'm grateful for mentors and I'm grateful for friendship.
James: Um, I mean, again, uh, I haven't seen you for so long and it's good to, to, See and, and see you thriving, uh, in this environment. So I'm grateful for that too.
Jenn: Thank you. And I am grateful this y'all, this, it might be sappy, but, um, I knew James and his wife in high school, and I always thought they were the cool kids.
Jenn: Like I always thought they were the cool kids and that I would never be that cool. And I hadn't talked to them in forever. Uh, Pam posted on, I think Facebook about some stickers and something like that. And I thought it was so cool. She mailed them to me and I put a mustache on my bike on the sticker. And it's like, it, It is so interesting on how much I used to put other people on a pedestal just for being that it was those type of things that being able to see how kind people were and continuing to see that over the years and seeing what, you and Pam are working on and what you work on.
Jenn: And it's just, it's so cool to be oddly grateful for some social media and being able to see people thrive and still connect with them.
James: A hundred percent. And, uh, yeah, don't, don't ever consider yourself a stranger, Jen. You're always welcome. And if you're ever in Idaho, we'll go get lunch or something.
James: Thank you.
