Habits that Lead to Burnout is Shit2TalkAbout S3 EP9
“Sitting still, like sitting with my own thoughts and feelings was really uncomfortable. So rather than do that, I was like, I’ll just go to yoga every single day.”
Episode Transcript
Jenn: Hello. Hello, beautiful humans. Welcome to shit. You don't want to talk about. I'm your host, Jen Janod. And today we have Amy on our show. Please introduce yourself and the shit you want to talk about.
Amy: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me, Jen. My name is Amy Schaumburg and I am a Denver based mental health professional.
Amy: I have spent so many years Many years, about 13 years working as a school psychologist. I then pivoted into the health and wellness space more as a mental health coach. Um, and what I really want to talk about today is burnout. And specifically, I would love to talk about the individual factors that contribute to our burnout.
Amy: There are systemic issues. There are organizational problems. There are many other layers to burnout, and they all need to be addressed. However, what people don't want to talk about, what I didn't want to talk about for a long time, was what I was doing to perpetuate those cycles of burnout for myself.
Jenn: Awesome. Thank you. And, and that's a great callout is, uh, just so anybody listening, or if I decide to put this on YouTube, I'm not sure if I'm doing that for this season, but if you see us, uh, we are two white women that are talking from our own experiences. We do want to call out that there are social economic, uh, economical challenges that other people may have and that we don't see or don't personally experience.
Jenn: And if you have the thought, you're like, I love this topic, but I would love to know more or want to go into like a certain area. We will do what we can to help you with that. That is something that we are wanting to have this conversation and we'll take on that burden. You're not alone, even if it's not something we personally experienced.
Jenn: So I just want to call that out.
Amy: Absolutely. Thank you so much for that.
Jenn: Now something that, uh, actually. Was, um, big on when we did, uh, when we were talking before the call is I was going off a memory for our intro call and was like, oh, yeah, you were a school counselor. No, there's a big difference between a school counselor and a school psychologist.
Jenn: And then you also may have your therapist, your. You know, psychiatrists, like there are a lot of different terms. So to start us off, could you kind of go through those? Like, what's the difference between like a therapist, a counselor, a psychiatrist and a psychologist?
Amy: Yes. Absolutely. And that's such a great point.
Amy: And honestly, there is so much overlap. It's understandable that there would be confusion. And before I even entered my graduate school program in school psychology, I didn't know what the heck a school psychologist was. I had never heard of one myself. And so, um, I get the confusion. When we talk about mental health providers within a school system, typically a counselor does what you think a counselor would do, right?
Amy: Helping someone who's having, um, emotional problems or having a rough day or just, you know, um, needing some support and navigating a challenging situation. Talking about those sorts of things, but not really delving deep into, well, let's talk about your childhood trauma and let's, you know, un, uncover some of these deep, dark things that may be causing you to feel this way.
Amy: It's, it's kind of like, um, Let's talk about a way to feel better and get you where you need to be for today. Um, and then also a lot of school counselors also help support students, especially at the secondary level. with scheduling and talking about college or whatever might happen after graduation and that post secondary planning.
Amy: Um, whereas going back to therapy, therapists don't typically work out of schools. There are some schools that house a therapist, but there aren't typically, you know, school therapists. Therapists are there to Really help process maybe a trauma or something that has, you know, happened that's really impacting you or manage a diagnosis, that sort of thing.
Amy: And then finally, a school psychologist, sometimes I joke around and say I feel like a jack of all trades because I do a lot of counseling when needed, but what we are specifically trained in that the others are not is psychological assessments and psycho ed assessments. So, um, especially where I worked for many years here in Colorado, a lot of my job as a school psychologist was helping to evaluate students who were suspected of having some sort of disability, um, and that might be impacting their learning.
Amy: So I would do different tests, um, you know, based on the referral question or the area of concern to see if they would qualify for special services, whether that might be a 504 plan or an IEP plan, something of that nature. And then additionally, on top of that, we are trained in crisis support, crisis intervention, crisis management.
Amy: So that means, um, any type of threat assessment, any type of, uh, safety concern. Typically, counselors have a very similar training, and I think it varies by school district, by state, uh, where that overlap comes in. Um, and then a lot of what I also did when I worked as a school psychologist was providing direct services to students who don't have any did have an IEP with mental health time on their IEP.
Amy: So if it's an
Jenn: IEP.
Amy: Great question.
Jenn: I was like, there was another one in there that I was like, uh, Oh, it was probably the
Amy: 504 plan. Yeah, that one. Yes. So those are just, um, those are names of two, uh, documents to federally, you know, protected documents that, um, allow a student to access the education, um, in a way that is, uh, you know, commensurate with their ability level.
Amy: So I'll start with a 504 plan. A 504 plan typically just has what we call accommodations and accommodations level, the playing field. So perhaps If you are a learner and it takes you a little bit longer to process information, um, you might need a little bit of extra time to complete assignments or tests.
Amy: So that might mean on a 504 plan you have an accommodation that says allow time and a half to complete this test or this assignment, that kind of thing. Whereas an IEP stands for Individualized Education Plan. And so As the name suggests, it's much more robust. And so there are identified areas of need.
Amy: So whether that's reading or that's, you know, uh, executive functioning skill, like organization, or if that is emotion regulation or, you know, something to do with math, whatever that area of need is, there are specific goals that the special education team puts on this plan. So, um, You know, whatever that might look like for that student.
Amy: And then there are, you know, we progress monitor, we provide special instruction, direct instruction, direct services to help that student meet their own personal goals, because they're, you know, every student who has one of those plans has a different, uh, you know, a set of goals than the next kid. And so, um, a lot of my job then, um, not just evaluating students who would receive those plans, but then providing the services that they need once they are on those plans.
Amy: If that makes sense.
Jenn: Cool. And, and it does. And you and I talked about this a little bit before, and I just want to, um, see if I get it. And also, uh, psychiatrists, I don't really think school psychiatrists really exist. Uh, please correct me where I'm wrong. But, uh, if I recap kind of what we just went through, uh, Um, a psychiatrist in general, at least here in the U.
Jenn: S., the way I like to differentiate everyone is a psychiatrist is who will give you medication. Um, a psychologist is who will diagnose you, give you all the tests and diagnose you, a counselor in a school setting cares more about like your structure and overall, and are you hitting your goals and achieving your day to day, um, And a therapist is somebody that helps you deal with, uh, more complex issues.
Amy: That is such a beautiful summary. Yes. Yes. So beautiful.
Jenn: I listened, I listened. Uh, and, and then, so, but these, these programs that you mentioned, and I do want to, I'm curious about that because when I went to school and we talked about this a little bit earlier, it was, I think it's millennials in general. I am currently, let's see, it is 2024, the first half, and I'm currently 35.
Jenn: So I've been told by a lot of people and also seen this a bit online that women, um, Those that, uh, were, are, uh, born as women were less likely to be, uh, be able to be identified as ADHD when they were younger because they didn't realize, like, uh, this, the system psychologists didn't really realize that there was such a big difference between boys and girls when, um, to diagnose.
Jenn: And. That being said, though, um, without changing and that is much more prominent now and understood. I remember that they, at least for myself, they didn't, uh, address my, um, ADHD and I am super ADHD. It drives me bananas. Um, but it, they also did tests on like my dyslexia. I'm like hardcore, like they didn't think I was dyslexic and I was just really good at like, learning how to guess what people wanted to hear, which I was like, Oh, I feel like such a smart cookie.
Jenn: Little did I know, but they also did other tests. Like you talked about, uh, executive, uh, executive functioning, not a thing. I like, I had a count, like, um, uh, I would say like, kind of like a therapist, but more like a, uh, Um, an occupational therapist type situation where they would try to teach me to juggle not because I need to learn to juggle, but because it was a way to keep me to organize, which way I need to do things.
Jenn: I bring all of this up because, um, if. To for somebody to actually picture what it would be like, if somebody were diagnosed and actually understand what it is, um, if somebody had an. What did you call it? An IEP plan? Yes. Cool. An IEP. Yes. An Individual Education Program? Plan. Plan. Plan. Okay. If somebody had that, and let's say that they were dyslexic, would that look like, Oh, hey, so we'll make sure that they have an audio version of something.
Jenn: Or somebody will help them read it. Is that something that that would look like?
Amy: Both. Absolutely. So it's whatever is needed to, like I said, kind of level the playing field. So that's where that audiobook accommodation would come into place. And then also, um, having somebody directly teach to your areas of need.
Amy: And teach you explicit strategies that might make it a little bit easier, right? And have someone, it's kind of like a tutor, right? Um, to just teach you those things that, that you really need some support in, that you can make some progress on to make, you know, reading not so arduous.
Jenn: And, and thank you for that.
Jenn: I, I don't want to skip ahead, but I kind of want to skip ahead. Uh, we talk about the things that. Like in, in the beginning when you mentioned about burnout and this is something that I find really interesting and even as we're, we're bringing up right now, something that's showing up for me is there are things I need to do to be able to make me better at something, yet it's exhausting, so I don't do it. But it's like almost like I'm fighting myself and making myself burn out on things that I should be doing or my guilt is getting me and I keep telling myself I should be doing something. Therefore, I'm not doing it. And it's like this cycle. And when we're talking about education. That, those are a direct tie for me because I didn't realize I was dyslexic or ADHD or bipolar type 2 or any of these things until I was an adult.
Jenn: So like, seeing that diagnoses can happen earlier, I'm like, dude, that's dope. Like, that is something that could really help people, but even with that, it sounds like burnout can still happen.
Amy: Yeah. First of all, thank you so much for sharing your experience. Thanks. And. Again, I'm so sorry that it didn't feel supportive to your needs when you were in school.
Amy: Um, it can be really difficult for anybody regardless of your age, but especially as a child, as an adolescent to struggle, right? Whether that's academically or socially or emotionally and not know why. And all you're getting is negative feedback. You're getting bad grades or perhaps you're being, you know, um, shunned socially if that's the case.
Amy: You know, your area of struggle or whatever that might be. And so you're getting this negative input and you're like, what is wrong with me? Um, and I've seen this time and time again, and it is, it's devastating. And it's really, um, it's really unfortunate. Uh, because there are systems in place that can help kind of make it so it's not, uh, feeling, feeling so difficult day in and day out.
Amy: Like it's right. It's never going to be easy. So for instance, my son, I have a 10 year old son and he also has ADHD. He also has anxiety. He has an IEP and you know, this, these plans and these services help him. And it makes it a lot, a lot easier, but it doesn't just take everything away. I think back to the period of time before he had those supports in place and life was a heck of a lot harder.
Amy: For him and for us, truly.
Jenn: Thank you for sharing that because it's, it's like um, Uh, a way I like to describe this when at least for learning and I like that you mentioned about like how it may show up in school and in life is not knowing that I was dyslexic. And that I was ADHD, I really heavily leaned on talking a lot.
Jenn: A, I'm really great at it. If you couldn't tell, I have a podcast. Uh, but it also was my way of being able to connect and learn. Because I had, I loved books, but it was so hard to read. And so I didn't realize about audiobooks or being able to have like And back then, um, there weren't iPads, but, uh, my iPad can read me, um, you know, uh, books now that even if it is something that doesn't come as an audio book, but how did, like, how did burnout show up for you?
Jenn: Like you had these resources, you knew that these, and these are just like one aspect of it. Like, this is like your, your, your, your past work and thank you for going into these explanations. Having that being said, how did this show up for you and how did you realize what burnout was outside of just like, Oh my God, I'm not taking, I'm not doing all, all the things I'm supposed to be doing that society tells me to do.
Jenn: Or I am doing them and they're not working.
Amy: Yes, absolutely. Well, for myself, actually, I think it's helpful to start with talking about what is burnout. Because I do believe that that is a word that we're using more and more, but I'm wondering if everybody is also talking about the same thing. So when I talk about burnout, I talk about the World Health Organization's definition of burnout, which is unmanaged chronic workplace stress that is characterized by energy depletion.
Amy: So just feeling exhausted all the time. Um, it's also characterized by this mental distance. Like you just don't really care about your work anymore. And finally, the sense of reduced efficacy, meaning You feel like no matter what you do, you can never get ahead. Like there's, it's just, there's so much, or it's so big.
Amy: You just don't feel a sense of accomplishment ever. So when we talk about those three things, right. So feeling disconnected from your work, feeling exhausted, feeling like you can never get ahead. That was the sign for me that, okay, I'm actually experiencing some burnout. And, you know, I, I have always been a very ambitious person.
Amy: I have a love of learning. Um, I've always been a high achiever and I, I have this pattern of like doing more and doing more because I am, I am multi passionate and I do have a lot of interests. And I, like I said, I love learning. But then I always get to this point where I have taken on so much that it's not fun anymore.
Amy: Like the things that I had been saying yes to now feel like a burden. And um, so that's just kind of who I am as a person and it's taken me a long time to realize that. Um, and it was a couple years ago that Listen, let me think what happened. So there was the pandemic and during, uh, COVID is when I decided that I wanted to train to become a functional medicine certified health coach that I had already been working as a psychologist.
Amy: I was, I was working as a full time psychologist, but I started this training and it was great and I love it. And. But then it was about towards the end of that one year training period my husband Started working on a really difficult project at work, and he was basically not around at all So I was solo parenting So I'm working full time You know in this training program and essentially solo parenting and I mentioned I had a student or kid with you know Some special needs and at that time he wasn't on any plans.
Amy: So we were still trying to navigate that and figure out what was going on and support him. Um, and so I was operating as though I were superhuman and I was running on fumes. At the same time, I was like doing all the things I was exercising every day. And I was like, you know, eating really healthy and doing all the stuff I knew was good for me, but it was kind of stressing me out to do all those things.
Amy: And then the, the kind of the thing that was, I don't know, just brought everything crashing down. I took my boys, I have two kids. I took my boys to go visit my family in Ohio. So my parents and my siblings live in Ohio. I'm in Denver. Um, And, you know, it had always been a challenging relationship. I had always had a challenging relationship with my family.
Amy: Um, but typically when I arrived for my visits, I had gas in the tank and I had like more resilience. That particular visit, as I mentioned, it had just been like a slew a year of difficulty and I hadn't seen them, I don't know, maybe two and a half years. And so, We got out there and we're staying with my family and then, you know, not too long after our arrival, these old patterns of dysfunction emerged.
Amy: Um, I should have known that they would, but it was really hard to difficult to, to, to manage. Like, it was really difficult to, to deal with. And, um, It really had an effect on me. I had this like PTSD reaction. I had to change our flights and brought my boys home early, have been estranged from my father since that time now, still two years later, so that happened.
Amy: And then I, that was like the start of August and school resumes about August 15th or so. So that was like where I was at coming back into my, my job as a school psychologist and So I was, I was essentially just like running on fumes, but that whole Family situation just had me rocked and I was just kind of going through the motions at my job.
Amy: And I was just reeling from this difficult time that I had just had with my family in Ohio. Plus all of the other things were still going on. I was still training to be a coach. My husband was still non existent because he was working so much. I still had a kid with special needs that weren't being properly managed.
Amy: And I just noticed that I was feeling really exhausted, and I didn't want to go to work, and I just felt this distance from my work, and I felt like the, the needs of my students in that building were so high that it didn't matter what I did, I was not going to make a difference. I felt really defeated, like, these, these kids need so much, and I can't give them any of it.
Amy: You know, these were the thoughts in my head, these were the feelings. And, um, That was when I realized, like, I am burnt out. I literally have nothing to give, and I need to take care of myself. And so, I made a really difficult decision to take a leave of absence from work, because it wasn't fair. You know, I was not giving My all and, um, I needed to put myself back together.
Amy: Funny thing is, uh, that wasn't the end of the burnout. So I take this time off work. I decided I would take 10 weeks off. And so at the start of that period of time, I did what every, you know, high achieving person on a. You know, leave of absence for burnout would do. I started piling on the self care. So every morning I'd drop my kids off at school and then I would go to a yoga class and I'd go for a walk in nature and then I'd read a self help book and I'd talk to my therapist and I'd go get acupuncture and you know, I did all the things that I thought I had to do and I'd pick my kids up from school at three and I'd be a mom for the rest of the evening and then the next day I would do it over again.
Amy: And I did that for about eight straight weeks. And as I was nearing the time that I was going to be returning to work, I was like, I feel exactly the same as I did at the start of this, what is going on? And that was. The real epiphany. That was when I finally realized that it is not just a situation, you know, that the school environment that was tough, there is a lot of need, you know, there's, that was contributing to my stress, but that wasn't causing me to feel burnt out, you know, the family stuff that happened.
Amy: I hadn't addressed any of it for, you know, almost 40 years. I had just kind of ignored these things and, you know, told myself, well, I just have to deal with it once a year when we visit. So I had to like look deep within myself and, and recognize the habits, habits and the beliefs, um, that I had been perpetuating, that I had been telling myself that were kind of causing me to continuously fall into these cycles.
Amy: And I realized, you know, I was a people pleaser. Which was a hard, bitter pill to swallow because I pride myself on being independent and confident and like, you know, not a person who goes around trying to please others, but that's truly the truth because I avoid conflict and avoid, um, difficult conversations.
Amy: Uh, because in the short term, that would provide a little bit of comfort, but, you know, in the long term, it does not. So I had to, you know, recognize my need for perfectionism, and I had to understand where that came from, and all of these things. And then, finally, when I was able to peel that back and start to address those true root causes, That was when the real healing began.
Amy: And that's when I was able to really make some big shifts in my life, um, so that I don't keep going down that pattern of, you know, doing too much, avoiding, uh, all the things and then becoming burnt out again.
Jenn: Thank you. First off and. There's a multitude of questions that are coming to mind of One of the first ones would be how did you? Identify items that were habits or Cycles like that's something that I'm like cool. Yeah, I get that that happens. I probably have some I definitely could people please Like, and, and I like what you said about how people pleasing doesn't always mean like you're going and saying, Oh, let me go do everything for you because I just want to do that for you.
Jenn: It's conflict avoidance of let me figure out how to not deal with you and that's just going to make you happy. Therefore I'm people pleasing. At least that's how I interpreted it. So I just want to say that was my own interpretation. But how do you like identify these items to. Realize that there's cycles and then how to break them.
Jenn: Like that's, that seems very daunting.
Amy: Absolutely. And I didn't do it alone. And I think that having the support of a coach or even a therapist is really important because it can be really tricky to look at our own experiences. Our own internal experiences, objectively, luckily, I do have training as a psychologist and a coach.
Amy: So I was able to kind of use a lot of the techniques that I use with my, uh, clients and students at that time on myself. But one thing that I, I noticed at first, I just got curious, like I would tell anybody who's listening and they want to figure out what are these patterns or habits that I have that are no longer serving me.
Amy: What are they? Step one, just get curious. Like, do you find yourself in the same situation over and over again? What, what's going on there? So for me, I used to be a person, and I still am, so I have to continuously work on this, who needs to be busy all the time. But that's not actually helpful. It's because I was avoiding something.
Amy: So when I took that time off, and I was, like I said, piling on the self care day after day, it was because sitting still, Still, like sitting with my own thoughts and feelings was really uncomfortable. So rather than do that, I was like, I'll just go to yoga every single day. That's not like addressing the root problem, right?
Amy: So what are those thoughts that I'm avoiding? And then, you know, working through that and talking through that with someone. And, um, Creating a new narrative and shifting that story. It's, there is a lot of internal work.
Jenn: Couple comments on that one. Uh, the first one I, I want to say, I always thought that I was a hard worker and that was just my work ethic and it wasn't until, and I had, this has happened multiple times where I would work as hard as possible and push as Like to like climb ranks or whatever I need to do to do as much as I possibly can.
Jenn: And then I stopped climbing. They would expect me to do the same amount of work, but I wouldn't get a reward. Basically. That's I guess a way of saying it. And then I'd be like, well, this isn't changing. This isn't getting better. And I would just leave and go somewhere else. And. It didn't matter how much money I made, if I made very little or a lot, it honestly kept happening and I was like, Oh, it's the type of work I'm doing.
Jenn: Didn't really matter what type of work I was doing. It wasn't until I was forced to take a break. And honestly, it was forced. Um, I, in 20, November 2020, I had brain surgery. And it's where, You don't have a lot of choice other than to like sit and do nothing. Like I couldn't really walk around without having somebody They're with me.
Jenn: So like if I got lightheaded that I wouldn't fall over. Um, and it, it was the first time that I had to be with myself and even near sunset and it's taken a lot to go, Oh, am I just people pleasing or trying to do something to avoid everything else in my mind? And. I don't know if you experienced this, but trying to change my mindset wasn't just be curious, let's do this.
Jenn: It was going. Oh, I shouldn't feel that way and getting mad at myself for getting like feeling a certain way and going, oh, instead of a should, what's going on? Or like, what, what is this? Or just document it and reminding myself. Oh, okay. That's something that I didn't really like. Okay. There's no should.
Jenn: There just is. It is what it is. And what can I learn from this? Was that something that took you time to learn? Okay. Like, consciously, like, change that. I don't know if everybody else has the shoulds.
Amy: I think the shoulds are very, very common. I was just working with a client recently who, um, has a lot of shoulds and I actually, um, she's been journaling the shoulds and then we talk about those in session and talk about, you know, Why is this a should and what if it wasn't a should and how would you feel if it was I choose to do this instead of I should do this?
Amy: Or choose not to, whatever that might be. Um, but going back to your question, did I, was it, no, it's, it's a process and it still is right. That, that like burnout rock bottom moment for me was over two years ago, but it's. A constant thing that I'm continuously working on and the self awareness is the biggest part.
Amy: I mean, even recently, I, I recently, uh, was offered a new position, uh, at a different school district and I felt like conflicted because. I, I enjoyed the place that I had been working at, but this new opportunity was just in alignment with what I needed at this time in life. And it was, uh, you know, a nice pay increase and all of these things, but I felt really badly to tell the old place that, you know, I'm going to be leaving and I've been putting it off and I was putting it off and I was putting it off.
Amy: Um, and then I was like, This is that people pleaser in you, Amy. It's because I was, I had created the story that if I tell them I'm leaving, they're going to be upset with me. I'm going to let them down. They're going to be burdened with an extra, um, you know, caseload that I would have been working on if I stayed.
Amy: All of these things build this up in my head, right? It gets bigger and bigger. And then I feel even more uncomfortable initiating the conversation. And then I have the conversation and they're so wonderful. They say, congratulations. Good for you. That sounds amazing. I'm so happy for you. Of course, we're going to miss you, but you know, this sounds great.
Amy: And I'm like, Oh, I should have just said it. And so it's not something that you get curious about. You recognize, and then it just changes. You have to continuously work on it. But the way I see it and the way I've experienced it, um, it's almost like going to the gym and lifting weights. Like the, the more you go, the more often you do it, the stronger you become, the easier it becomes.
Amy: And so just starting even small, like that was kind of a larger example, but just like, can we, could I, can I voice my opinion that's true? different, different from, you know, the, the opinions in the room. Could I try something like that and see how it goes? Like, did anyone die? No. Did I get like, you know, shunned or get, you know, eggs thrown at me for saying something?
Amy: No. So whatever I thought it's going to be fine. And so it's like this more and more you practice, it becomes a little bit easier. And even if it doesn't feel easier, you know, because you've had the experience of doing it, that it's going to be okay. Okay.
Jenn: You reminded me of something that is something that has taken me a lot that I'm like, I've, I've realized I've gotten better about voice in my opinion, which I'm like, yes, that's a win.
Jenn: What I have a hard time with, and I work in the tech world, so we use a lot of online tools to be able to communicate like, um, Slack or those types of things. And Something that I've realized I do, and I do it to, I was doing it to everyone in my life, of overexplaining something. I'm doing this so blah blah blah.
Jenn: Yeah. It's, I, I honestly, I have a, I'm doing a, uh, a workshop on Wednesday and I'm like, Oh, I haven't done this workshop. I need to schedule a rehearsal. That means I have to like find a time. That means I have to tell my team. So I rewrote this message four times. Because it was, if anyone's available, please come to it because I forgot to schedule it and I haven't done this and it's new technology and I'm really scared about it.
Jenn: So could you all please show up so that way I'm feel supported because then can you also show up on Wednesdays? Therefore, I also have backup then. Is what I wanted to type. And then I was like, nobody needs an explanation. No, I, and this was a big shift for myself was I was over-explaining myself to show someone my worth to make myself worthy.
Jenn: And it was, uh, I ended at hi everyone. If you're available, please join my rehearsal on Tuesday for the workshop on Wednesday. That's it. That's all I put. And I had so much support from my team and it's something that we, we talked about this earlier, um, that there are a lot of issues outside of our control.
Jenn: And not everybody's situations are like this, but, uh, something I'm really grateful for is I've been here almost a year and I'm learning to trust myself and trust those around me and it allows people to show up when I'm not trying to overthink what, like, I'm not trying to force them to react a certain way.
Jenn: And. That was exhausting.
Amy: Yeah.
Jenn: Cause I, it's almost like I was, I was manipulating the situation to try to get them to respond in a way that showed me I was worthy or that I was liked or that I would be okay, that I'm not going to get in trouble or hit or Fired or, you know, like there's all these things, but how, how do we, like, I want, I, I, like, I know for myself that took time that took years, that's taken lots and lots of therapy yet.
Jenn: As a burnout coach, like, where do you have people start? Because that's, I mean, It's an amazing feeling and I'm so grateful. And it's like, I wish I could just package this up and give it to everybody. Like, I just like want to give each other, everyone a gift. That's not really possible.
Amy: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that.
Amy: And, you know, in my work with clients now as a burnout coach, I. I follow what I call the 3R framework that I invented, which is basically recognize, release, and replace. So first step is to recognize that self-awareness, right? Just recognizing those unhelpful patterns or those faulty beliefs. Just what are they?
Amy: And we can challenge those, you know, is it true? I often use it. Um, and if you've been in therapy, you may have heard this before, but I often use this technique, um, called, you know, will this hold up in a court of law? Right? Like, what are the facts? What are the evidence that this is true? Thought that you have is a hundred percent truth.
Amy: If we went to trial right now, could you prove that it's true? 99 percent of the time, the answer is no. Right. So that's, that's a, that's a way for us. So anybody, like I use that with myself a lot when I start having these thoughts, like they're going to be so mad at me or they're, you know, I'm going to let them down.
Amy: Is that a fact? No. So recognizing something that's not serving you. And then, you know, like I said, releasing it. So releasing that need for external validation. And replacing that with knowing your own self-worth. So what is it? We could start small. Is it an affirmation? Is it, um, thinking about like, what are my strengths?
Amy: What are the things that I'm good at? Cause I'm good at a lot of stuff and reminding myself of my strengths every single day. Um, coming back to our values, what, what do I value most in life? And can I make decisions that are in alignment with my values? Because a lot of times we have a hard time, especially as you know, as females, as high achievers, um, of listening to our inner wisdom.
Amy: I heard you say that you needed to kind of, um, attune to that inner voice and listen to it. And we have been taught by society, by our culture, to quiet that inner voice. And so, um, we need to really learn how to hear it again and then honor it. That gut feeling, right? We always get that gut feeling. And what does it mean?
Amy: And, and that is where the curiosity comes from. And truly, the third part of that is replace, and it's just replacing the challenges, the, the faulty beliefs with something that's supportive and nourishing. And so I always start with self-compassion when I'm working with others and when I'm working with myself.
Amy: So self-compassion is just Speaking to yourself in the same way you would speak to a friend. So if your friend came to you and shared whatever struggle, uh, you're going through, let's, if they said that this is what I'm going through, what would you say to them? And now say that to yourself or write it to yourself in a journal.
Amy: And those are small steps that we can take all the time.
Jenn: I, I love that and, and thank you.
Jenn: A question I want to bring up because I feel like it does go with the three R's and, um, because there are a lot of things that society says is self care and, and I, I'm, I'm using the three R's as an example because like, uh, I, especially when I'm traveling for work, um, I start to get my lashes done and I get my nails done and I make sure my hair is done and.
Jenn: Society, I feel like has taught me that that is self care. I'm like, I do not feel like that is self care at all. I feel more like that's a luxury. Those are things that I feel like I need for my job. Those are things that I want to represent myself as, but there's like a shame associated, like I've, I've felt shame around, Not feeling replenished when I go do those things of, or shame around when I am exhausted and just want to do what I, what I like to call potato.
Jenn: I, many of my colleagues and friends and family will know this term is I tell people I went to go potato. And that just means I don't want to be around anybody. I want to be. in bed under my weighted blanket with my iPad to play Genshin Impact or watch Doctor Who. Like, I don't want to be around anybody doing anything and want to be by myself.
Jenn: Um, and feeling guilty for that. So how do, how would people unpack that?
Amy: Yeah, that's such a great point. You know, I think self care has really become a dirty word that's really triggering for a lot of people. Um, and I think that self care means something different to everyone. And I do believe that the media has taught us to believe that self care means something different than what it truly does.
Amy: So, my definition of self care, to me, self care is anything that fills your cup, brings you joy, and and is nourishing to you as a person. And for some people that might be going to get your nails done. I have, you know, a couple of colleagues and friends who love to go get their nails done and they feel like it's a relaxing time.
Amy: And for me, I hate getting my nails done. I just went last night and the whole time I'm like, Oh my God, I just want to be out of here. But like you said, it is kind of like, Part of the job. I'm a professional. I'm in a lot of meetings. I want to appear put together. And that's something that also helps me with my confidence.
Amy: When my nails look good, I feel better about myself. And maybe that's probably another thing I need to address, but you know,
Jenn: I mean, it's the same.
Amy: So I totally get that. Yeah. You know what I mean? Um, self care when I was on my leave of absence, I thought self care meant I needed to do yoga and go for walks in nature and read self help books and meditate.
Amy: But that's not the kind of self care I needed then. Right. So self care can also change, uh, depending on your current situation, where you're at. It just, whatever you need, right? You can like, what is going to be nourishing? If it's being a potato for the afternoon. Awesome. That is self care. If it is, you know, going to the salon.
Amy: Awesome. That's self care for you. But what I've really been working on lately, um, with others, And with myself, but I've kind of coined this term self care by subtraction. And so We feel like we have to do so much more and especially with the women that I work with, they are so busy anyways, right? They have, they have jobs, they have personal responsibilities, they might have families and saying, you know, what do you do for self care feels really Like I think it invokes some like defensiveness and some anger because it's like I don't have time for self care Wouldn't that be nice if I had time for self care totally get that so it's like, okay.
Amy: Well what? Let's take a look at your day Let's take a look at your week and what are some of the things that are happening that you just can't stand Like can we take away something? Can we subtract something from your plate? Whether that's a tangible thing or an intangible thing if it's a thought if it's a task if it's You You know, whatever it is, it's different for everybody, but looking at what can we remove?
Amy: What can we subtract? And how can we help you feel like nourished and rejuvenated by that?
Jenn: It's thank you for saying that. It's, um, something that you, you, You mentioned about like, that it looks different and it can change is I mentioned earlier, I am ADHD and I don't know if all people with ADHD do this or if I'm, uh, you know, alone over here and which is totally okay.
Jenn: I rearrange my house, every single room gets something changed every single month. It is not like it is something that can frustrate me so much because I'm like, why can I not just let this go? And it's, but it's also something I really, really enjoy. Yeah. And so I've noticed that, yes, there's chores around the house, like keeping the house clean and things like that.
Jenn: And it's also like, when I'm like, Oh, I really need to focus on the room. I need to do laundry. Laundry needs to get done. It can be very taxing for me to go, Jen, I know you want to go do the dishes now because you want to, you need to do laundry, so you want to go do dishes. You got to stick and stay, do laundry.
Jenn: And something that I've realized is just letting myself go wherever I need. So if I start laundry and then I decide that I'm going to go do the dishes and go clean the garage and then rearrange my office for the millionth time, that's also a sign of self care for me because I'm like, Oh, I just got to go on the whims of whatever I wanted to do and enjoy it.
Amy: So you subtracted the pressure to stick to the original plan that was arbitrary and meaningless anyways.
Jenn: Mm hmm.
Amy: And that feels freeing.
Jenn: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Amy: Yeah. Absolutely.
Jenn: And that's, uh, I, I appreciate this conversation and, and getting into some of the tangibles because I feel like that is something that I've always had a really hard time with is I get what you're saying, but I don't get how, how, like how you go from like A to B.
Jenn: Like, that's on an island over there. I don't know how to get to the island. And I kind of feel like we started to build a boat, so I feel like I could get to the island. But what is, like, is there anything that we didn't cover today that you wanted to cover?
Amy: Gosh. Um, I feel like we could talk about this stuff all day long.
Amy: Um, you know, I would just. I always like to instill hope and, you know, if someone is listening to this and they're like, oh my gosh, I don't know how anything can ever change, you know, or I'm feeling really stuck or I'm just overwhelmed. I would, I would wish that listening to your story inspires hope and hearing us talk about this today shows that there is a path.
Amy: And even if you're a little bit blurry, um, on that path, like, know that it exists and it doesn't have to feel like a Constant struggle forever. Things can get better. Things will get better. Incremental, you know, changes, uh, build momentum over time. I often speak about making a 1 percent change. What, what is the 1 percent thing?
Amy: 1 percent shift that you could do that would allow you to feel 1 percent better. And then we often come up with these big resolutions and I'm going to do this. I'm going to change my diet and I'm going to exercise. Six days a week and dah, dah, dah, dah. What is the minimal amount that you could do every single day to feel successful?
Amy: So I was working with a client recently who had some great exercise, um, goals and we narrowed it down to realize, okay, I'm, she said, if I get on the bike for five minutes a day, I'll feel like I did something and it's better than nothing. I was like, yeah, absolutely. So I know that when we think about doing internal work or, you know, changing our thought patterns or changing our habits that we've had since childhood, it can feel big, but I would encourage everyone to think small.
Amy: What is the smallest thing you can do to feel 1 percent better?
Jenn: Thank you for that. That, I, I really like that one. And I, I mean, I feel like that might have been words of wisdom. Do you have any words of wisdom to add to
Amy: that? You got the assignment. Um, yeah, I think that would be my words of wisdom. Um, you know, I do, I created a guide called Self care by subtraction, the new antidote to stress and burnout that I would love, you know, your listeners to have access to kind of explains what we've been talking about in a more linear way.
Amy: So, if there's any way to share that link with you, yeah, it'll be.
Jenn: Sweet. We will put that in the episode description y'all. And what, what made you want to talk about this shit now?
Amy: Oh my gosh. Well, it's been my own journey and. The journey doesn't end, but the longer I've been on the journey, the more I've recognized that individual factors have a huge, um, a huge part to play in our burnout.
Amy: You know, I also worked with someone recently who had changed jobs probably half a dozen times in the past. 15 years. And, you know, this is a very hard worker and she's very intelligent. And she would go into these jobs and give it her all. And then it completely burnt out because there was no boundaries and just working, you know, 80 hours a week.
Amy: And then it was always the company of the company, leave the company, go to another company and the same thing would happen. And then, um, spontaneously on her own, she finally realized like, Hmm, maybe it's not the companies Maybe there's something going on with me And you know as I have gone through that process myself.
Amy: And, you know, once you kind of go through something and you come out the other side, you, you see things differently and you can see it impacting others around you because you see your, your old self reflected in them. Right. And so I see my old self reflected in so many people around me, people that I work with, the clients that I work with, my colleagues, you know, in the schools.
Amy: And so, Because it's still there, it's still prevalent. And because I was able to work through it and feel so much better. I just feel this, you know, this massive drive, this inspiration and passion to teach that there is another way, another way that personal resilience is a huge part of the puzzle and we can cultivate that and we can foster that.
Jenn: Thank you. Thank you. And it's, it's something, uh, that I, that I realized we, we touched base on and we're going off of our experiences and, uh, Is there something that, yes, these are for all humankind, and a lot of the references we explained, uh, we used were for women. Um, is there, do you have any suggestions for men going through any of this?
Amy: Yeah, I mean, men have so many. expectations placed upon them by society as well. And, you know, it's that, that therapy question, how's that working for you? Right? Like, does this feel good? Is it filling your cup to, to feel that you have to, you know, be the breadwinner of the family and, you know, do all the, the man labor, right?
Amy: Like do all these things. Is that, do you enjoy that? If you do, cool. But if you don't. What could you do differently? And I think that it's also interesting because men talking about mental health in general does not happen, but men are way less likely to talk about feeling anxious or feeling overburdened or depressed or burnt out guys, just suck it up because I don't know why that's what they do, but that's not helpful.
Amy: And so how could you get that out? Could you like, just allow yourself some time and space to think about it? Let's start there. Okay. Not even talking to someone else. I'm not saying journal and you just put five minutes on the calendar. Can you, you know, before you turn the key in the ignition to drive home from work at the end of the day?
Amy: Can you sit there for five minutes and just be with your thoughts and be compassionate about your thoughts? Be self compassionate and think about what is something that 1 percent better today.
Jenn: I love that. Thank you. How does, uh, how does the audience reach out to you?
Amy: Oh my gosh. So I am on LinkedIn, Amy Scamberg. Um, or I'm sorry, on Instagram at amy. shamberg. I am on LinkedIn. I have a website, amyshamberg. com. Um, happy to share all of those links with you. And, um, I just want to put out a plug if anyone's listening now. Um, and they'd like to, you know, learn some of these strategies. It's called, Um, six weeks to get out of a burnout rut and decide your next move with confidence.
Amy: So I would love to give any of your listeners 20 percent off if they choose to join so they can just mention your podcast.
Jenn: Sweet. Thank you. Thank you. And last but not least. What is something that you're grateful for?
Amy: Yeah, I love this question. Every night before I go to bed, uh, I lay in bed and I think about three good things.
Amy: So three things that I was grateful for from the day. And I've noticed this pattern that it always has to do with people. Like it's always a person or an interaction. And today what I am grateful for Is the kindness of the director of the job that I told you that I was leaving. Um, I finally let him know today, I can't do this anymore.
Amy: I feel so bad. And he was so supportive and so kind and generous in his response. And, um, it just kind of like made me love humanity over again. So, yeah.
Jenn: I love that. I love that. Uh, for myself, I would say my gratitude goes a lot towards, uh, my. Vocal coach. It is something that I just started doing like the day after Thanksgiving this last year and it's helped so much in just not losing my voice as often and understanding my breathing and She taught me how to use my diaphragm like actually breathe into it and like I can feel it now I and I When we talked earlier about being told we couldn't do things, especially when kids in school.
Jenn: This was something that a Choir teacher would just be like sing with your diaphragm and I'm like, bro. I don't know how to use it What?
Amy: What does that even mean? Right?
Jenn: Yeah, and this teacher taught me and I can feel the difference and I'm just really grateful to have resources that I didn't have back then.
Amy: That's beautiful. Absolutely.
Jenn: And thank you again, Amy, for coming on the show today and we will see all of you next episode. Thank you so much for having me. Bye.
