Supporting Transgender People in Your Life is Shit2TalkAbout S3 EP 8
“It’s all about getting to know the person as a person and choosing to ask the questions that do not include that middle-ground judgment statement.”
Episode Transcript
Jenn: Hello. Hello, beautiful humans. Welcome to shit. You don't want to talk about today. We have Venia joining us, which I'm very excited about. Venia, please introduce yourself and the shit you want to talk about today.
Venia: Hello, my name is Samantha Logan and I am an online community architect. Uh, so I spend a lot of time building a lot of online communities and I've been doing it for over a decade.
Venia: And in the course of all of that work, uh, it always just seems to come back to the place where I started, which was building online communities for LGBTQ individuals, uh, particularly trans people, uh, because I started my career, uh, as a YouTube creator. aficionado on the very, very old 2011's YouTube. Uh, it generated a community of 4, 700 trans individuals, uh, who were all uniquely not out yet.
Venia: They were either not out or they were stealth or they were still questioning their identities. They weren't ready to take that physical plunge or in many cases, they couldn't. It was too dangerous for them to do so. And it's been, what, we're at like 12 years since I did that, and it is still a big problem talking about the manners and the approach that you take, uh, to better understanding the transgender community, uh, and LGBTQ and diversity efforts.
Venia: At large, uh, so here we are talking about it again Uh as with all discussions as with all conversations and all identities Uh, I want to provide space for that welcoming Area for difficult questions because if we don't do it here, you might end up running into some issues in your regular life So hopefully I can answer some questions relieve some efforts and inform you a little bit more about the LGBTQ space as it stands right now, 10 years after.
Venia: rescue. net.
Jenn: Yay. Thank you, Venia. Y'all, I, I, I will have to admit I'm a total fan girl of Venia. So I used to live in Denver. Uh, let's say, let's see. I live there like what we met like two years ago, two years-ish,
Venia: I think. Uh, you're, you're a year and a half. Um, yeah, we, we had your going away party in the summer.
Jenn: Yeah, yeah.
Venia: Yeah,
Jenn: that's true. Okay. So yeah, uh, Venia and I met from, uh, going to local networking events, and by doing that, I saw Venia and I was like, dude, that is such a dope necklace. And it was a very metaly necklace because That's what Venia does, is metaly things. That's how I explain Venia's jewelry, is all, all things metal.
Jenn: And then, didn't even think of it, just said, Cool, you're a cool human, k bye. Um, then like weeks later, at another event, I saw her again, and I think I gave her the same compliment. And then I was like, I think I already complimented you and that might be a little awkward in my bed. Um, hi, can we be friends?
Jenn: And luckily Venia said yes. And now it has been many museum days and hanging out and catching up and cross-continent friends because Venia is now in Australia and not in Denver. We have a lot of questions for today and I'm, I'm backtracking myself and restarting I To ask, so people are getting the context when they're listening to this, if they're not watching a video of it or, you know, because we also don't want to put any assumptions on anyone.
Jenn: How do you identify?
Venia: Yeah. So I identify with all female pronouns. She, her, hers. Uh, and I made a transition from, uh, one end of the spectrum to the other. Um, the notion of a spectrum in and of itself is a lot easier for people to understand. It's language that, um, you can familiarize yourself with. Um, so we'll do our best not to complicate that editing for you.
Venia: But, uh, it's basically from female to male. I went from one side to the other. Uh,
Jenn: And Thank you for that. Because one of the, the question going back to it was many of us don't know. And I say us meaning like. I think anyone that doesn't know how somebody identifies and we take it as face value, is that good or is that bad?
Jenn: And that, that is a big question in general. So we don't need that too bad, too much into that. But when it comes to, uh, gender-wise, I did not realize that you were trans when we first met. And that's happened to me a few times. And. I don't know if that's good or bad or if that's something I'm supposed to be acknowledging or how that would make other people feel overall.
Venia: This is a very, very important place to start, um, because this is about identity negotiation and trans individuals. in public space, uh, and how you should approach that and how you need to be informed. So here's what I will say from the get-go. You're listening to this conversation. Um, this is where you're supposed to start.
Venia: Uh, you're tackling the issue right here and educating yourself without a transgender person having to walk you through that process. Now, normally, if you have a transgender individual in your life, Uh, and let's be honest, let's be real, most people do, and probably don't even know it. And that is okay.
Venia: That is fine. We have, in the transgender community, a series of different terms. that we use in order to describe this. Um, my personal journey kind of describes a lot of these terms, right? When I first questioned my identity, I was in high school, and I was not expressing myself As female, because I was in high school, it was dangerous for me to do so.
Venia: I grew up in Cheyenne, Wyoming, the place of guns and freedom, and it wasn't a great place to express that, right? But that does not mitigate the fact that I was a transgender individual. I just purely wasn't out yet. So, talking to me about these things? Solid no-go, right? Do not bring attention to it. Uh, if you notice anything, don't say anything about it.
Venia: It's okay to choose to ignore things if it seems like it might be dangerous for that individual. If you do transgress one of those boundaries, uh, the terms that we use are outing, which basically means, hey, you just outed us to a bunch of people who may or may not react very well, and that is supposed to be the onus, responsibility, and privilege of the transgender individual.
Venia: If they want to out themselves, That is on them. If you do it for them, you just transgress the line. Don't do that. Right? However, that doesn't mean that you won't have noticed. And that's the important part. If you suddenly discover that someone in public, a friend or a family member or something like that, might be trans or might be gay or something along those lines, or, um, you have suspicions, What you've done is you've quote unquote, clocked them, which basically means, Oh, this person might be a member of the queer community.
Venia: Clocking is totally fine. It is you having situational awareness enough to go, Oh, I might need to change the way that I behave in order to associate with them. That does not mean, and this is where the thing gets a little bit weird. That does not mean that you take steps to make it more obvious that you're because that might out them.
Venia: So here's the relationship now between these terms. If a person is closeted or questioning, you think that they might not really know what their identity is, or if they have not brought their queer identity to you in the first place, do not make the assumption that they are out about it, or you'll out them.
Venia: If you clock them, And your behaviors change to apparently you could risk outing them. So just kind of keep it in the back of your head and when in private or when your relationship is close enough to them or you feel like they're uh available to talk then you can start edging around that question And asking like, oh, hey, are you a member of the queer community?
Venia: Maybe not the right question, but you can say Hey Hey, how is your partner doing? And if in the course of that discussion, they feel perfectly comfortable telling you, Hey, they're in a non-heterosexual relationship. Great. That worked. Right. Uh, but it's all about that social dynamic and recognizing with situational awareness that someone might be trans or might be, uh, LGBTQ in some way, and, uh, Navigating those social situations such that they have control over who knows about their own identity.
Jenn: Thank you for that.
Jenn: What if, and adding to that, what if we don't clock someone? And they've already transitioned. Is that, is that disrespectful for, to them? Is that like, something we should, Okay. Like someone should have realized because, um, I, and this is where I'm not remembering all my terms correctly, but I believe, uh, there is a term where somebody that is transgender and, um, passes as transgender that nobody could ever tell that that can be good or bad as well.
Venia: Yeah. Um, what I'll say here is that in virtually any case where the individual has control over their own identity. You will pretty much always be fine. You'll be safe. So, let's say you're in an environment where an LGBTQ individual, specifically a trans person, uh, is present and you're unaware. Not putting your foot in your mouth.
Venia: about the transgender community in any situation where there might be a trans person. That seems like a terrible idea, so maybe don't, right? It's, it's about creating a safe space regardless of whether you know that space is necessary, right? It's about being proactive, and if you don't clock someone, like me, right?
Venia: I strongly prefer Um, being, I prefer when people look at me and go, “Okay, she's just a regular average female.” I have frequently been asked, like, if I have a tampon on me. And that makes my, that makes my day. Like, I love that. I love that. Knowing that I'm done with my transition, that I can just go do whatever I want.
Venia: However, that does not work all that great for a lot of queer individuals with, uh, different identities that are not congruent with male or female stereotypical traits. Like let's say pronouns, for instance, if you have someone in your presence who goes by they, them pronouns. And you don't know, it should be one of those responses where you're proactive about it.
Venia: And you say, Hey, my name is Vanya. I have she/her pronouns. And what that does is it brings the possibility for other into the room and it's up to them what they want to do with that. Remember in all situations, as long as it's on them, how they choose to navigate the identity situation, you are pretty much almost universally.
Venia: In the clear. So if you don't clock someone, it's largely a good thing because it's now on them to decide whether or not they want to share that identity. However, in the interest of making sure it is safe for them to do that. You should be proactive about expressing it yourself. Even if you're straight, I prefer she her pronouns Just say that right and you don't need to make it clear that you're cis hetero You don't need to make it clear that like you're in a straight relationship or anything like that.
Venia: You just need to say My name is Vanya, she, her pronouns, and use the word partner for your own partner. Like if you are in a traditional hetero relationship, female-male husbandry situation, you have a wife and a husband, call them partner instead. And that produces a proactive environment for them to feel safe telling you about their identity.
Venia: Without sticking your foot in your mouth.
Jenn: Thank you. And I, I, I feel like this is a big part of
Jenn: when people don't know what to do with the information and they. Almost go overboard one way or the other of like, if they clock someone, they're going to ignore it, which doesn't help. And, or they go overboard and change too much. And thank you for going through some boundaries of just like some of the experiences and how you've talked about it with building your own communities, because this isn't something that a lot of people even know, just.
Jenn: Getting together in the communities that they've had all their lives. Yes. Something that I wanted to ask about and would love to hear why this is not a good thing to ask. And, and this has been asked, I've had a couple different episodes like this and, um, there's not a good way of asking this. So like, it's going to not be great no matter how I say it.
Jenn: But. That's what these are asking. Right, right. This is why I'm doing it. Uh, so have you had surgery? Wait, have you had no surgeries? Uh, but you look like a girl when you're talking to somebody that's trans or, uh, yeah, you could never pass as that. Like, these are all things that I've heard. I've loved ones I've cared about, have gone through.
Jenn: Um, could you start us off with why It's nobody's business about surgery and body things because I feel like that is something that hetero individuals have a hard time with because in their mind it's like surgery means that it's like completed not that it's to try to be mean but I feel like I'm also just trying to play devil's advocate and like hope that they have the best intent when they're asking like that and not everybody will.
Venia: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I understand their propensity and the desire to know about the things that are the most interesting, right? And when it comes to trans individuals, especially, when it comes to a surgery, the, um, psychoanalytical, the emotional, the social, and the physical aspects. of transition, they don't add up.
Venia: Like when it comes to your interest in, Oh, how do we navigate our social situations? How does surgery work? This is the question people get excited about, right? It just feels foreign. It feels magical. It feels like an adventure, right? But what I recommend in order to better understand how to handle the surgery question is to kind of pump the brakes a little bit and start with the basic questions first.
Venia: So, the first questions that you brought up were like, Oh, you're trans? You look pretty for a trans person. Or, I didn't even know. You look, you look like too beautiful to be trans. What that's doing is it is comparing an identity you just discovered to an identity you're familiar with. And it is making a judgment about them, right?
Venia: So you're allowed to compare the identities. There's, okay, what's the difference between a trans woman's identity, a genderqueer person's identity, and a cisgender woman's identity? And if you're only familiar with one of those, Obviously, you're going to want to make those comparisons. And those comparisons are how you learn.
Venia: What people do way too quickly is they jump to that judgment portion in order to make that comparison. And when you make a judgment that says, Oh, so you're a trans individual, you're way too pretty, I don't believe that. Like, really? Is that there? And it sounds like it's, Mind-blowingly positive. It's just like, whoa, you just blew my mind.
Venia: I could not believe that you look the way that you do, but there's this underlying statement, this microaggressive statement that essentially says, Oh, you're a trans woman and you just met a standard as a CIS woman. I didn't expect that you were capable of that. That's kind of fucked, right? If you, it happens in.
Venia: Um, like traditional gender roles even when people are just like, wow, you hit like a girl or the other side of just like, damn, that girl is feisty. Ordinarily, that girl is feisty is perfectly fine, but oftentimes that's just the woman who's being forced to step up to the plate of male expectations and they are being judged by their male peers.
Venia: That's not great. So maybe don't do it. It's that knee-jerk response and a lot of people will make the jump from point A to point B without recognizing that there's this implicit judgment being made in the middle. That's where the problem lies. We're fine with you compared. If you include that judgment in the middle, now we have a problem.
Venia: So let's kind of discuss those like small little micro adjustments and whatnot, and how to handle those a little bit better. And that will land us at. The surgery question, right? So step number one is going, okay. Difference between a CIS woman's life and a transgender woman's life or a CIS man's life and a transgender man's life.
Venia: You have a lot of questions. As long as you don't ask the judgmental questions first, and you kind of ask like, okay, how does your life differ? Like, what is one aspect that you think we could help with? That might be a good question, depending upon whether you know them. And if that seems like it's too risky biscuits, trust yourself on that.
Venia: And just say, oh, I didn't know that you were trans. I would love to talk about this if you're interested, but if you'd rather not, no worries. I am curious to know if there have been any issues in the office that are caused. Can you tell me a little bit more, right? Like super, super simple question. It's all about getting to know the person as a person and choosing to ask the questions that do not include that middle-ground judgment statement.
Venia: When you want to know about the surgery question, first and foremost, people don't ask about genitals right out the gate. If you, if your relationship with this individual has not progressed far enough, um, for you to ask about things like that, then you should not ask them. I know that it's interesting. I know that it's fascinating, but there's still that judgment.
Venia: They still deserve privacy. So that's the judgment mode being made there. There's this implicit judgment. Understanding that because they are trans, your interest in a subject has usurped their right to privacy. That's the judgment being made. So you have to be very careful about it. Recognize that there is a relationship that you need to cultivate before you ask something so private.
Venia: And second, instead of asking, so how does surgery work? You can ask, so what was your transition journey? Like, what was your transition journey? Like is a far easier way for them to bring up whether they've gone through surgery or not. Just ask them where they are, not what this surgery is going to look like.
Venia: Does that make sense?
Jenn: It's all about that judgment. It does. It does. And something that I specifically want to call out in, and please correct me on this too, is that surgery is not required to identify as trans surgery is not for everyone. Surgery is not like a definitive part of it and it's nobody's business.
Jenn: Yes. I will say I have been that person that I've asked these questions. It's not great. I'm not, I'm not the, you know, I started the show because I started asking these questions and I had people that were kind enough to tell me why I shouldn't be asking these questions and helping teach me. Yet it was never their responsibility.
Jenn: Like there are really awesome people like Venia in the world that actually does this like full time and teaches people about all this stuff all the time. Um, but that's not like just going up to a stranger or going up to new friends or something like that. It is, it is not our place to put that emotional and intellectual burden on them.
Jenn: And a lot of this is none of our business.
Jenn: That being said, and something that we, we talked about this earlier, and I think this is, um,
Jenn: a way to go back to, you said that you identified, uh, or you presented as male in high school. First off, I want to call myself out there and say, identified and, um, presented as are two totally different things.
Venia: Yes.
Jenn: Yeah. Could you clarify those, uh, as well? And then I'll continue my question.
Venia: Sure. So, um, for those of you who know me in my professional space, um, this is something I very, very commonly do.
Venia: For those who do not know me, uh, just a little bit of a statement on, um, theory. So, I am very academically focused. I focus a lot on, um, the underlying constructions that create identity. So this might get a little bit academic, I promise, it is very, very worth knowing. So how do we construct identities?
Venia: There's a theory called identity negotiation theory. And this is a theory that posits the way that we interact and come to learn who we are, is a dialogue, a conversation between us in our environments, right? Now, there is this. I like to call it the grumpy gear in your head, right? There is the difference between the logical processes of your brain and how you choose to respond to things.
Venia: Then on the other side of the brain, there is this emotional response, this ventral that's response that, uh, tells you how you feel about stuff. And these two sides of the brain are connected by this one major response. Um, gear in your head, right? And it makes snap decisions and it does it very, very quickly, right?
Venia: And it very rarely is it ever wrong, but it does tend to go, I don't know how I feel about that. So you normally get three responses from your grumpy gear. You'll get, yes, I absolutely identify with that. Yes. I'm excited. Yep. Go ahead. Let's do it. Or no hard. No, I don't like this. No, this is not going to work.
Venia: And then the other one is, uh, oftentimes they will go, I don't know, let's, let's dabble or I don't have enough information, right? Yes, no, or we need a little bit more. So let's say I were to ask you, Jen, uh, do you like football? Would you say that you're a football fan? American or the rest of the world?
Venia: Yeah. So you need more information, right? So you're going to be here to set. Okay. I want to dabble now. Let's say, do you want to go play tag football on the field. Okay. Right now hard pass. Yeah, see hard pass in the the way that your identity kind of generated itself was based upon prior experiences and knowledge with what football is What tag football is what your experience was as a child playing tag football and whether or not you had an appreciation or enjoyed it Your grumpy gear has already made that answer before Any words come out and your feelings are catching up to that stimulus-response.
Venia: This is what allows us to speed up the way that we respond to our world and our identities are forged on top of that. So we have this underlying grumpy gear that says, yes, this works. No, this doesn't. Now what happens when you live your entire life and your grumpy gear never says yes to anything? Think about how demonstrably damaging that can be, right?
Venia: So, I've spent my life from zero to age 18, right? Going, these are the things that I really like. These are the things that society is telling me I need to like. And for everyone that society told me I needed to like, I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. When you get that yes from the grumpy gear, that is a sense of belonging.
Venia: That is a sense of identity. That is a sense of knowing who you are in relation to the environment. When you don't get the yeses, you don't know who you are, you don't know in relation to the rest of your environment what you're doing, and it breaks you because the feelings that you have do not connect with the logical components that you have.
Venia: And in situations like that, like trans individuals, especially people who are questioning their identity, they're in the process of trying to find that yes, and they're fragile. Because they just keep getting too many no's from the grumpy gear, the identities just are not jiving with the environment. So the way that they respond to their environments are going to be different.
Venia: They're going to be, um, not as typical as you might expect from a regular cis hetero individual, right? Now, this is where we get back to the discussion of identity negotiation. When we have these internal monologues and this grumpy gear is making decisions, we are expected to put on a mask so that people don't see those inner workings.
Venia: That mask can sometimes be super, super positive and theatrical. And we use that mask in order to adjust ourselves to social situations. So people don't see how the back end. So because you have that back gear and it's saying yes, yes, yes, yes, or no, that all of that identity negotiation, that messy stuff is now being placed behind that theatrical mask.
Venia: And the way that they choose to present themselves is being almost entirely controlled by how the environment is going to agree. With the way that they present, right? So a person may have already decided, no, I'm trans. I don't give a shit about hot rods. I don't care about cars. I don't want to like, exercise.
Venia: Honestly, I absolutely adore fashion. I love makeup. I want to wear skirts in development. And this multitude of lists that basically say I better align with the gender roles in society of females. is going to bump up against the mask that says, I am presenting male because society expects me to. They're different and they're allowed to be.
Venia: And that's on them to be on a journey that they have to negotiate to make the mask on the front match the machinery behind it.
Jenn: How would you say in one sentence to recap it of what is the difference between identity and presenting?
Venia: Yeah. So using that same grumpy gear analogy, right? When your grumpy gear puts together a list of yeses for who you are, what you like, what you enjoy, what you do, that that is the way that you identify.
Venia: But when society bombs up against that list and you have to act as someone that you would not want to be according to your list. That is the way you are expressing yourself, the incongruities between those lists, because we have to do some things, and our grumpy gear isn't going to like it, right? Like we have to portray ourselves in society with things that we don't identify with.
Venia: That is your expression.
Jenn: I like that.
Jenn: I'm glad you went into the behind-the-scenes thinking of that and how, how. identity and presenting is created. I wanted to ask of you, you mentioned earlier that you presented as male in high school and at the age of 18 started to transition. Have you experienced a lot of differences between what men can get away with versus what women can get away with?
Jenn: Or don't get away with it because this is like a, there's not many people that get to experience both sides of it.
Venia: And I still struggle with this every single day. Um, every day. Um, we all know that there are some really wonky. Uh, we all know it's bullshit, but we all deal with it because it's impossible to fix.
Venia: Kind of stuff between males and females in the workplace. Let's just consider the binary, right? Like, we're just starting at the binary. Um, women get less pay. Uh, women generally tend to freeze in their offices a lot more than men. The temperature is set, um, primarily at making sure that men are comfortable in their spaces.
Venia: And, I mean, you know, To some extent that makes sense because it's easier to put on a frock than it is to just like sweat and remove like clothing, right? But there's also the expectation, um, that women will be more well put together in a lot of environments up to the moment when men are required to wear ties, uh, and women are, we have a greater amount of diversity in our identity, our identity sets, right?
Venia: Like it's these weird gender dynamics. That are just a part of our society, and they're not necessarily bad, but they do kinda suck, and there are some of them that are just like, we have to fix this problem, but it's been around for 300 years now, we don't know what to do about it. There are these things.
Venia: So the fun thing about me, uh, anyone watching this, anyone listening to this, you'll know that I tend to be very long-winded. I have a little bit of a silver tongue. I really like talking. I fill a room. I I'm very ecstatic. I'm very upbeat about that. Now, a lot of women tend to mitigate that kind of behavior so that they sound bubbly.
Venia: They sound really positive. But they don't butt into important conversations, they don't interrupt, they, uh, kind of take the backseat on conversations, and when you have a woman go into an executive boardroom and act like I do, they become the boss, right? In a lot of ways, those traditional gender roles. I constantly regularly struggle with the really fun thing about this is when I did not have an identity that I thought was worth living.
Venia: Prior to my transition in high school, I was a mouse. I was not like this. I did not like talking. I did not like engaging. I like, you could tell that I wanted to, but I constantly kept myself back and it led me into a deep, dark depression because I couldn't act around my friends the way that I wanted to.
Venia: I was constantly controlling all of that about myself because I didn't want to talk. I didn't want to like, uh, even attempt at a visual appearance. I was just black clothes, jewelry. That was my entire identity. In a lot of ways, as a male, I failed. I was at the bottom of the totem pole, right? Constantly bullied, didn't want to do anything, didn't want to represent.
Venia: I was considered like this very soft person. If you were to put me into female and gender roles at the time. In high school, I would have absolutely complied more with the feminine identity. than I do now, even, because now I fill a room, I take control, I'm very demanding, like I'm the girl boss kind of stereotype, right?
Venia: Now we get to the issue of when I walk into a room. Because when I walk into a room, I'm not justifying these female stereotypes and also demanding female ascribed identity. I am also doing that in the context of other men who are more than happy stepping up to the plate and filling that room with me.
Venia: And when that happens, we together silence other people in the room, men included. Men don't like that. The fact that that is happening. So I have found very frequently that when I go into a social circumstance, I get tremendous amounts of anxiety and I am calculating actively. The share of voice that I have in comparison to everyone else in, in the room, I shouldn't be doing that.
Venia: That's not normal, but because of my transgender identity and the tendency that I have to take advantage of the male privilege of taking the stage, but also I'm female presenting and I am louder than most of the females in the room and other females need to take that stage from me. I have to take the time to say, here's my piece.
Venia: If I explicitly point someone out and suddenly I become the facilitator in a room, I should not have that power in, right? I have to constantly negotiate that as a trans individual because I regularly bump up against this issue. I am constantly riding the expectations as a female with my propensity to follow male-privileged communication dynamics.
Venia: That's fucked. It's fucked. The whole thing is just messed up. And I am constantly doing that arithmetic and math in every single social situation I'm in.
Jenn: And for everyone listening, if you couldn't tell, this is why Venya and I are friends is I am absolutely fascinated with this. And Venya is very academic in all of this.
Jenn: And it's something that. An episode that I recently, really recently recorded and will, uh, will be coming out, um, soon after this episode airs, it talks about the academic system and how, uh, people can get into school when if they wanted to go into college and those type of things. And it's with someone I knew from high school, and we paid attention to each other.
Jenn: Uh, like on social media through time, like I always thought him and his wife were like, so cool. And I was like, I'm never going to be that cool. And he has his PhD and stuff like that. And like, like they are just really, really cool. And it was recording that and meeting people like Venya that are like, y'all are wicked smart and still bring people up to your level and remind others how smart they are and give them space.
Jenn: And And I, I see that because I know what it's like to be a loud person and a girl boss and, um, you know, own a room. Uh, I do that from time to time. And I also have to go, Oh, wait, I gotta make sure other people talk. Okay. Let me make sure I have their space and being able to see people that actually care about that and that kindness.
Jenn: And that is something that I appreciate that you mentioned because it's, Something that yes, I, I personally think is very based on our environments, but also based on our characters. And that is very, very different for each individual. And thank you for going into so much of this today, because this is shit no one wants to talk about.
Jenn: Like, this is like, It made me cringe asking some of the questions because I knew they needed to be asked. And it takes a lot for people to be okay with taking on that emotional burden and intellectual burden to want to teach others. Is there anything part of today that we didn't cover that you wanted to cover today?
Venia: Yeah, um, I, I think there's one aspect that I think, um, is always important and it, uh, this is almost always my extra caveat, uh, because it's very, very frequent that no one ever actually asks, um, and it's also one of the most important things. This is something that trans people tend to struggle with as they move through identity.
Venia: When we start our transitions. Our lives are very much about completely reinventing our identity expressions to match the identities that are inside of us. So transition almost becomes all-encompassing. It is who we are, right? So, what I like to call this, and I say this very politely, um, it's kind of the bitch phase.
Venia: where we just went from an identity that we do not ascribe to, but that was forced upon us to an identity that is fiercely as it should be ours. So fairly frequently, a lot of people in early transition are just like, I'm trans and I don't give a fuck. It can be very aggressive, right? And that is great.
Venia: That is fine. Oftentimes it can be a little bit overwhelming. So a lot of people are like, Hey, tone it down. And they're like, I'm not going to turn it down. Big pride. It's kind of a bit of a bitch face because they're being very defensive about the identity that they have finally received for themselves.
Venia: There's got to be a little bit of empathy for that connection, right? Like, they are going to be a little bit over defensive. And that's part of the process. It's going to irritate some people and that's fine. As those individuals start to feel more comfortable in their identities, they're, that's going to tone down and that's a good thing.
Venia: They're going to feel like they've changed because they've changed a lot. They're going to be over defensive and then it will just kind of say it and things will kind of go back to normal. They will settle into their new identities. And after a period of time, If you keep bringing up everything that happened in that early transition state, where it's just like, you know, you were kind of a bitch back then, which again is normal.
Venia: Um, if you keep bringing that up and you make her their early transition life, literally everything about their lives. Now it's going to get so absurdly tiring because all they want to do is settle. Like, things are done. It's behind them. It's over. We need you to also let it go. Right? As an example, I Ran rescue.
Venia: net like I founded the YouTube channel that was trans youth channel into rescue. net 10 years ago, this month, a decade ago. And I was the biggest, loudest proponent advocate for LGBTQ and trans life. Ever. It was my entire life. Now, 10 years later, I have 10 years worth of a career in community. I'm working in academia.
Venia: I'm making a book. I have like a big career kind of situation. I have moved on. I'm a female. I'm just living. It's normal. I am happy to talk about my transition, but almost all of the time, the things that I did in my early transition define the current me, and I just want the public to recognize that the past is not the present.
Venia: All the time. It's fine to have these discussions, but bringing it up constantly and telling like, Oh, you know, there was this story about Lilia when she was in early transition and it's like a thing. And it's like, great. You just outed me. I appreciate that. Like, can we, can we move on, please? Like I, I'm settled.
Venia: Let it be. You know, um, does that make sense though? Like that early transition over propensity should not define the rest of our lives.
Jenn: It does. It does. And in having friends that are, that are currently transitioning, I can, I can see that. I do think that that applies for transitioning genders. I think that applies to transitioning life in general as well.
Venia: I agree.
Jenn: And I feel like when people have a big life change, others around them can really grasp onto that icky phase. It's the best I can say it. It's like, you know you need the change, you just don't really know how you're going to get to the point B. I agree. And it might be a little crazy and. It's giving, giving others the grace to explore, but also giving yourself the grace to
Jenn: be upset, be upset, be frustrated, be like, you know, these are all really normal emotions yet work through them.
Venia: Okay. Yeah.
Jenn: There, there's an episode that we, I did, Oh my gosh, it was one of my very first episodes on the show of, uh, parents of, um, a coach that helps parents of transitioning kids. And one thing that's always stood out is that it's almost grieving of the life you thought somebody would have in the life you would have the way it looked.
Jenn: And when you talked about when somebody is finding their new identity and If they go through a bitch phase, I feel like it would be, and, and I've had this with friends before where it's hard to see where I would fit in anymore because I'm used to the way me and my friend are now. What is going to happen now?
Jenn: Like, where, where do I stand? Like, am I going to be a part of their life anymore? And that is. From what I've seen, it's a very normal reaction and still giving them space and still giving them the grace. Like that is not, it's not, I don't need to make it about me. I can accept it and then let them do what they need to do.
Venia: Yeah. And I think bringing a different identity negotiation issue into the space outside of the queer world. would also really drive the point home as well. Um, individuals who choose to stop, stop drinking, stop smoking, or who are in recovery for abuse of substances. When they are recovering, life is almost entirely about no longer abusing a substance, right?
Venia: And fairly frequently it's like, Oh, I'm an AA. I don't know how to negotiate bars. So I'm going to be a little bit overzealous about it. A lot of people have labeled that like the vegan’s disease where it's like, oh, I stopped me Let me tell you about it or oh, I started cycling instead of driving Let me tell you about how terrible cars are it's this over propensity to overly defend an identity that you are now passionate about and especially when it comes to like Uh drug abuse or addiction or things like that Oftentimes our response is like, okay, get it, but you're being a little bit too preachy about it.
Venia: We don't need to stop drinking just because you are. But the reality is what they're doing there is they're trying to defend this identity that is not just important to them. It's a massive life change that is so wildly and dramatically changing their identity. that they have to fight for what they perceive is support in their environment because they're afraid they will fail.
Venia: They're afraid that that environment will force them back into bad habits. For LGBTQ individuals, it's forced back into a gender box. For substance abuse issues, it's potentially finding themselves back on the street, potentially finding themselves with heroin-like needles or something along those lines.
Venia: That is why you have to have some patience about it. And when a person has recovered, um, and I will say I have someone in my family who has been in this situation, she became very born-again Christian and it genuinely saved her life from abuses. Um, I'm sorry, there, they recently came out to me, um, uh, as gender fluid, and I do apologize about that.
Venia: When they, um, had those issues, now, they've been fine for hours of seven, eight years, they're finding themselves in completely new, totally amazing ways now, but when I focus so much on how they responded to Christianity and their drug abuses. It just brings them right back to that prior time, and it's not great.
Venia: So, outside of the queer environments. This is just one of those aspects where we just need to let go of the people they used to be so that we can let them be who they are now. That applies to parents very especially.
Jenn: And, and thank you for that. That is one of the things that I've, I've learned a lot about from being on this, having this show is, and, and you talked about it earlier of when we find something, we have to compare it with something we already know.
Jenn: to learn from it, to grow, like to be able to grasp it. And yes, we have been talking about the experience of trans individuals and overall, and relating it back to an experience that may not be for a trans individual. The reason we bring these up is So that way others start to grasp it and can start growing and understanding these things because a lot of people have never thought about having a conversation like this or know where to start or know the resources.
Jenn: And so thank you all for listening and going through this journey. And that is a great call out, Venya. And I don't believe I asked you this earlier, but why talk about this shit now?
Venia: Because it's been a conversation for 50 years now, and it will need to continue to be a conversation into the future. So if we don't talk about it now if we experience an interruption in that general discourse if we don't keep shouting, we're going to continue getting beaten down by the laws, um, Florida, Michigan, Connecticut, uh, I'm very disappointed that Connecticut is now on that list, if I'm entirely honest, but like, uh, we normally just see a whole bunch of these messages about anti-trans rhetoric and anti-gay rhetoric.
Venia: And we even saw Rovery Wade disappear. In the United States, and that's just in the U. S., like, we still have eq equal issues, uh, everywhere else in the world, not to mention Russia, where asylum seekers, uh, are getting out of Russia on the basis of their sexual and gender identities. That's very much an issue.
Venia: Um, so if we don't keep this discourse going and if we don't keep it going strong, we are going to lose lives by virtue of not talking about it. And how do people reach out to you? Uh, give me a Google. I'm pretty much everywhere. Uh I am I also have a very very unique middle name. I'm also the only one really who goes by Vanya Um, so you can find me at any point there The easiest way to find me is via my YouTube channel at youtube.
Venia: com slash at socially constructed dot online Um, and it's there, you can find a whole bunch of different discussions where I break down the theory and apply the practicality for a variety of different environmental situations in hopes of creating a much better, more communal, more associative virtual world.
Jenn: Yes. And what are some words of wisdom?
Venia: When we talk about empathy, we have to recognize that reciprocity and reciprocation are key elements of that empathy. It's not enough to feel for another person. You also have to give just as much as you take. And it's not about words of wisdom or being polite or anything like that when it comes to situations with trans individuals.
Venia: Uh, it's very much about giving them the power to manage their own identity. So you can have empathy for a transgender individual, but you also need to reciprocate the behaviors that they experience and give them as much power As they give you.
Jenn: Thank you. And last but not least, what is something that you're grateful for
Venia: This.
Venia: This. Thank you for this. This. Absolutely. Um, I also want to say I'm very, very grateful for my recent move and PhD opportunity. Uh, I'm now in Melbourne, Australia, and I could not be. Any more ecstatic and excited that the University of Melbourne has taken such a big chance on me enough to move me across the world so that I can do more research on diversity, equity, and inclusion in online communities.
Venia: It's such a big opportunity and I can't not believe it's happening.
Jenn: Thank you, and I would say I'm grateful for people that, uh, level up their lives and watching them do it. And dude, you have done that. Like, just like block, like ever since I've known you and just the networks that we can build and the possibilities that are out there can be endless.
Jenn: And it can seem overwhelming and daunting at the same time and meeting individuals that you connect with and you can have these friendships across countries and continents. And thank you Venya for being that I'm grateful for you.
Venia: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. And I'm so happy that we have the friendship that we do.
Venia: And here's to more years.
Jenn: Yay.
