S2 E4 Shit2TalkAbout How Tech Relates To Intersectionality Between Race And Neurodiversity with Wesley Faulkner
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Jenn Junod
Hello. Hello, beautiful humans. Welcome to another episode of shit you don't want to talk about and welcome Wesley. I have realized that I haven't done one of these episodes recorded a new one at least in a few months. And that's because I took a pivot to working on becoming developer relations in tech.
I, I'm putting that pause in there because Wesley was the first person I met on this journey and this was goodness almost four months ago. And I was like, Wesley, you have to come on the podcast. So Wesley, please introduce yourself and the shit you want to talk about.
Wesley Faulkner
My name is Wesley Faulkner. I've been in develop relations for four years. Before that I was doing social media marketing and general marketing for probably like, I don't know, eight years before that. And then, I was a product development engineer for like 5.5 years before that. And then before that, I've worked at Dell as a field engineer. So, I mean, I've had like multiple careers, so I have several different hats and experiences.
And I would love to talk about all my technical history and how it relates to intersectionality between race and neurodiversity or ways that I've been able to cope with figuring out like where I wanna go or how, what I wanna do or how I'm gonna get it done. I, I'm open to talk about anything. I'm a, I'm a very open book. I have a lot of experiences, some good, some bad. And let's get started.
Jenn Junod
Yay, I say yay, like, having a podcast called Shit you don't want to talk about and then somebody introduces it and you say yay,
Wesley Faulkner
well, maybe this is not the right title for this episode because I'm willing to talk about everything. So OK.
Jenn Junod
and, and so y'all, this is something that I've talked about of. I have a DH D, I'm B bipolar type two. I have dyslexia. I'm also to have depression, anxiety and PTSD. And I've always known about these things, but I never really knew how to talk about them. And this first conversation with Wesley, I was like, mind blown in the fact that he knew how to talk about everything. And could you tell us a bit?
Like, I, I feel like my words are not working in the fact that I the impact you had on my journey without, with just one conversation of you have a document that you share to your colleagues or your bosses. In your journey of like just identifying what neuro diversities you have. I feel like this is a multi tier question before we go into both of those. What is, what is neurodiversity mean to you?
Wesley Faulkner
So, neurodiversity ties into two concepts. There is neurodivergent and then there's neurotypical, neurotypical is considered the standard or the thing that people consider. OK. Or well, cool locally neurodivergent is the other. So there's, when you look at the DS M five, there's several listed like dyslexia A DH D PTSD, all of those like also autism and so many more. synesthesia is also neurodiversity. So there's a lot in there. But basically, what those are all considered
neurodivergent neurodiversity is considered that, all of those continuum of both neurotypical neurodiversity are part of the human experience and the tapestry of just being human. And so they're not different, but they're all just different shades and different names for how people think how people operate. And without both the human race would not be able to evolve or be where it is right now. And so it's all considered normal.
Jenn Junod
I love that. And it's, it's interesting because I've always struggled with like trying to find sound clips when I'm recording things and I'm like that. What you just said, it's just gonna be on repeat for everyone. Now, how does neuro diversion show up for you?
Wesley Faulkner
Oh, I when you say show up, I, I guess if you talk about you, I mentioned the names but I do have executive issues where I function disorder where I, I get distracted a lot. Things pile up. When something is not in my face, I forget about it. I'm horrible with names. Suck at that. Sometimes I obsess over things that are really important just to make sure that it actually gets done and I don't forget. And so that'll also manifest in a little bit of anxiety Before I go on a trip before I have to
do a speaking engagement before I have to tackle a large project, that kind of thing. I can be a little hyped up because I'm actually extroverted as well. And so when I get a little, when I get around crowds or groups, I can be a little, tweaky, like, make jokes off the cuff or, like, be a little boisterous. And that, that's kind of like how it shows up with me. and also, I don't know if it's related. It might just be a me thing, but I deal with difficult situations with humor.
Jenn Junod
Interesting. This is unpacking that a little bit. And have you ever heard of? I always bring up this book yet. I never remember who it's by. the body keeps the score. Have you ever heard of that book? I have, I need to look it up. I I'm really using my phone really quick to look this up. Something that you said that reminded me of that is also in your tweet that you made a few days ago of that, like the trauma that we've been through can in the book can impact.
Are these like neuro diversions in the fact and create them as well as like autoimmune diseases and that kind of thing? Do you feel like trauma could have impacted it or do you think that like you've always been this way?
Wesley Faulkner
Just to recap for those who aren't, are not aware of the tweet? I had an initial post that I published talking about some interaction that I had at a previous company with a senior executive that kind of used me and threw me away and then try to get me fired. And at the end I talked about like the reasons why I think that happened and me being junior the person just liking, just really liked to toy with people or control their future.
And I also brought up the fact that maybe it was because I was a, a young black person in tech and, and I said that sometimes different means disposable. And I got called out a lot by several kinds of people, different people, especially on hacker news who just said, why did you even put that there? Why is that even an issue? Why is that part of it?
And a lot of it also, those people were blaming me for my, my own persecution underneath this executive. And so I wrote a tweet thread trying to address that point specifically, saying that being like me, and you can choose race or ne divergence or whatever being like me means that never having to know why exactly people treat you the way you do they do.
Is it because of race? Is it because of bigotry? Is it because I was so open and authentic that people think I'm hiding something else and where they don't believe that my intentions are actually like pure. and maybe I have a certain type of naivete that people just don't believe, I'm not sure exactly what it is. And so I, I was talking about how, always wondering or feeling that you don't know exactly when something is gonna happen or why it's happening can also cause a part of some
trauma, some trauma triggers. And I could say stress is definitely a trigger for me. And this time was definitely stressful. And also it's demotivating. So whenever I feel like targeted or prosecuted, I feel kind of like, like kind of go inside myself and I'm not, I'm, I, I have a lot more restrictions on how I interact with people or how I show up and it demotivates me and really, really affects my executive dysfunction to the point where it's hard to get motivated to, to, to do
things that I feel either aren't appreciated or especially if it can be used against me because am I providing ammunition for my own targeting? So that was a long, long time ago. over a decade ago, actually that this happened. So I can't say that I remember but knowing myself, it probably did have a really big impact in terms of dealing with it and
how it kind of really negatively affected me by like inflaming some of the, the, the, the negative traits that come with, being neurodivergent in a neurotypical setting.
Jenn Junod
And thank you for sharing that. It's Oh, yeah. How do I say this? I appreciate how you mentioned that with the intersectionality that you have that. It's, it's hard to say was it because of XYZ? like it could have been a mixture of all of them. It could have been just one or two in the way. There is a complexity here that for everyone listening or watching, I, there are parts of Wesley's story in my mind that are very, very relatable yet there are some that I'm never going to have to deal
with. That is something that I, I really want people to think about. In the fact of I've had experiences where I've multiple companies where I've been used up and spit out. And a lot of those times I feel like it's because I didn't think like everybody else did. It just didn't click for me. I yet. And, and so that to me is very, very relatable yet.
At the same time, I have friends and co colleagues and I've seen them be treated completely differently because of the color of their skin and, or that could be it, you know, like it's very, very hard to say I bring this up because I, one of my dear friends, she is Muslim and has two kids that, at the time were probably eight and 10 and we went to a restaurant and she, she wears a hijab and is, fully covered and we didn't get service.
like they would not, like, they would forget about us serve the rest of the restaurant. Not like, even when I try to go get help. And I mention this because there's that complexity of, is it because she was wearing a hijab? Is it because they are black? Is it because we did something to piss them off? Like it's like these so many different things. And y'all I mentioned this because this is one of maybe half a dozen experiences I've had compared to what people have to deal with on a daily
basis. And how is I don't even know a good way of, of like asking this, like if this, considering that this is something that you got so much backlash on from, from sharing about it? It, who like was there a specific type of human that was giving you? I'll say attitude for it.
Wesley Faulkner
I'll just say that let me take a couple steps back if I could. Sure. on Monday, I gave a workshop for neurodivergent people who are entering tech. So it was a job, employment kind of workshop. And so I talked through a couple things and one is that there's a, there's, there's a lot of lies out there that we are fed when we are developing and growing up and right before we're entering a real world, whatever, however you define that about how if you work hard, you'll be rewarded.
just focus on the task, understand what your goals are and then exceed expectations. If there is a negative element, there are tools in place and systems in place to help with that like hr or, or, or rules and regulations in the workplace. If, if you the world is like a Met. So as long as you are doing the thing that you're hired to do that, all that matters is just your, your portfolio of work that you create and that is how you're judged.
And I feel that a lot of the backlash is those people who were fed that structure just like I was of how the world works. And so when they hear stories like mine, it feels like that an anomaly or I'm making it up or it just feels so foreign that it doesn't even give a hint of beli believability. And for those people that they may be sheltered, they may be privileged and or maybe just be lucky or they are in another place where when those things happen, they don't attribute it external to
themselves, but really channel that internally of saying I deserve it or I did that. So when you have that negative internal attitude about the experiences that you have if it is your fault. And that's how you metastasize this to your being. When you see it externally, it must be the other person's fault for that happening to them. So, I attribute it to either ignorance, sheltered or not having enough exposure to realize about how prevalent this is.
And it just being kind of fantastical that certain type of people already have, have these certain type of stories, which means that maybe these certain type of people make things up. And so there's a little prejudice around it. I, I mean, I'll never know why. I don't, I don't I, I can't say that there's a way to actually have decent conversations to kind of tease the stuff out. They usually don't go very far. But I can say that there is a lot of things injected into my narrative that I
never said in my story that for some reason they said, oh he instigated or he overstepped or he did all these things where they were just putting the blame back on me into a perceived of this is the way that it makes sense in my mind for it to go down the way that it did. So that in, in terms of me hearing and understanding and having compassion for people who reacted that way, that's the way that I make sense in my mind of how they can have those types of reactions.
Jenn Junod
This one's tough, y'all like this conversation is something I'm very passionate about yet. Like something that I've struggled with and is like, how can I be passionate about something that I've never had to deal with and how to advocate and bring these type of topics to the table. I, I say that in the fact of the experiences that you're talking about Leslie, I've, I've seen from my, I've done them myself.
I've seen it from other people of when they never had to experience it. It's something that it is really easy to put on, almost like rose colored glasses of, you know, like it can never be that way. And it's a lot of that empathy of showing, hey, what, what is their reality instead of just what I'm imagining? Like, what is somebody else's reality?
And I'm curious of how do you, you talk to like, how, how have you had to help change other people's realities to talk about this? Because I say it in the fact of an a response to my tweet to Wesley's tweets earlier which y'all, yes, y'all, I've suddenly become like really in love with Twitter. I don't post on anything else anymore. Was because I, I looked up his thread and I, I it's very, very powerful.
And my reply to one of them was if it's difficult for you to empathize or imagine what they're dealing with take on that emotional burden yourself. Google is right there. Yes, many of us have dealt with trauma. There is too many that deal with trauma but also systemic issues that we can never imagine. Wesley is on our show today. So I'm asking these questions outside of that. I probably wouldn't just be like, yo, Wesley. So like, how does this show up for you and how do you change the
conversation? because that is putting the intellectual and emotional burden on you. And I'm, I'm curious like a how do you start changing the conversation? But also how do you take on that, those burdens because do you feel like it's everybody's responsibility to be a part of the conversation or like, let people be and like, that's your own responsibility.
Wesley Faulkner
It's a really, really deep question that I'm not sure that I've done the work to think about as much. The reason is because, I mean, I, I, I'm, I don't know if I can impact the conversation from changing people's views about me neurodiversity or whatever. Most of the time when I'm speaking to it or speaking on it, It is by request, right? So someone's asked me to talk about it or I've submitted a talk and it gets accepted or, you know, self selecting if I'm going to appear or record a
podcast that people listen to it. So I've never explicitly had conversations or been requested to debate anyone who has an opposing view in a, in a, in the attempt to try to convince them, what I kind of focus on is knowledge sharing. Like I feel like I, I've learned some things and I'm still learning and I'm trying to share that so that those who want to listen can, can understand and those who don't know that they need to know that there's stuff for them to find.
So they can draw out these things that make sense to them to help them feel less alone and for them to have like at least a beacon to move towards if they're like, 000, that is a name that is the grammar. That is the thing that is describing the thing that I need to know about, that I want to know about. And they're able to use that as a launching point to, to go and do their own self discovery.
And before we started hitting a record, I was saying that a lot of the things or a lot of my engagements that I do is an act of recovery for me because of the amount of shame and stigma that I felt internally and externally through different sources about people labeling me and telling me who I am and it not feeling right. Some of that is still something that I'm working through.
And so as I talk through it. I'm almost manifesting my own future in terms of saying it is ok to talk about because I talk about it. And so that is kind of the, the thing that we're, it's ok to talk about because I started talking about it. And so I felt really uncomfortable at the very beginning of this journey with expressing what was going on internally about.
Like, oh my gosh, this is a thing that I've like spent my whole life holding on and making sure no one knew. And now I'm just talking about it. And then so it was like a, a leap of faith and super uncomfortable. But I knew that I had to start that journey of 10,000 steps because I i it was difficult, it was hard, but it was worth it and it still is because it allows me to be able to ex express the real me and the least amount of masking that I'm able to do throughout the day, the more freer and more
capacity I have to, to feel all of the other feelings that are available. So that's yes, a long winded way of saying that some people who are not gonna change are not gonna change and I am not gonna spend so much effort into having them see the ways or for them to understand. it's I, I'm not super religious but I still I grew up Catholic and there is a, the proverb about sowing the seeds.
I'm not sure if you heard about this where some landed amongst the thorns, some fell on a rock and birds took them away, some found fertile ground and started to grow. where, I just kind of like cast and, and that was actually a proverb about the word of God and knowledge and I'm not, you know, no equivalency here, but I'm just, just like throwing them out and like if it lands it lands, it's not, it's not, if you're not ready for it, that's totally cool.
That how it is received is not something that I'm taking full accountability or, or responsibility for. And if there is engagement and people want clarity or they want to know more, I'm, I'm an open book and I'm open for these kind of conversations.
Jenn Junod
Your replies, like make me have a lot of, I have to think through it before I say something. because something that, and I love how you said that you don't necessarily have the conversations unless they come up like with your speaking or your speaking is you, your speeches are accepted or, you know, sharing the knowledge that you already have.
I love that as like a part of something we can all do. And then I also something that I found myself doing is challenge a lot of people's questions because I'm in rooms that not everyone may have access to and challen challenging the perception that they have by asking questions. I say that as as an example, I had a family member, who couldn't comprehend why June 10th was a holiday and why it was a federal holiday.
or this came up again when Columbus Day became Indigenous People's Day. And instead of just letting them be that way and almost, it's like almost agreeing with them if I just like, ignore it and continue the conversation. And sometimes, especially with family, I do need to, to keep the peace yet. There's this responsibility I feel I have of actually saying, yo, like, why do you feel that way?
That's not cool. Like that is not something that and like asking them where they, why they feel this way and like digging deeper and to your point, like you can't always change the way somebody feels or thinks yet for myself, challenging it is, I feel like a part of my responsibility because if I don't, who will and and I guess I'm also answering my own question because it's not something that I put a lot of thought into.
I also don't feel it's like everybody's responsibility to do it. Like to challenge everyone around them like that cause a lot of chaos. But I, I, I struggle with this idea of like, if you're in a place that could have impact, why not use that to be able to better the world yet. At the same time, I don't think everybody has, I don't wanna see strength is it, don't have, it's not their jam to do it.
Like not everybody is gonna be an advocate just because they have power. You know, it's not necessarily their, what they vibe well with or what they do in the world. something that really, really caught my mind about what you said in like people, when you're sharing your knowledge of how people show up and can latch onto it and find more information.
That's a lot of how I was able to continue going into developer relations. But also finding my own voice with I host a mental health neurodiversity, Twitter, Space for neurodiversity in tech, mental health and neurodiversity in tech. See if I can get what it's called. And we choose a topic every week. And a lot of it was having the clarity from you, sharing your experiences and your knowledge, like with letters or things that you talk to with new people that work with.
You. Can you share a bit about like what you include, like if when you start working with someone and they need to, to best get along with you, could you explain like what your neuro divergence that you include and what you've talked about in those?
Wesley Faulkner
OK. I'm gonna touch on everything you said in that with the confrontation and the letter and all that stuff because it's all kind of related. where so the blog post that I did was on the just work website. There's a book called Just Work, which is how do you work in a just workplace. The author of that book is Kim Scott. Kim Scott also wrote a book called Radical Candor.
So, Radical Candor is a way of being able to communicate in a work setting. And in that work setting, what she lays out is that you have to, you can't just be honest with someone, but you have to actually have to be compassionate. And you can't use attribution bias, which is your person who you're related to said this thing. Thus, the person is racist, you cannot attribute the action to the person saying that they are this person because that is a fixed mindset said it's more of a
growth mindset saying that that the person did something and this was the impact. And so the attribution goes to the action, not the person. And so when you have those conversation, it doesn't come off as blamey, but more of like, I'm not sure that you understand how that impacted me or how it came off for me and you're able to explain it. And that's where you start to have those conversations where you're open to the person, not knowing that instead of having an accusation because
the harm that they caused isn't is by default intended. So you try not to do that. So those conversations with it comes from a, a piece piece of compassion and really caring for the person you're interacting with is key to having those conversations. And radical candor. And just work was amongst many, many of the books that I, I read that deal with like neurodiversity for one, even though it's not specifically attributing that to that.
But then business and leadership books and so that all gave me the framework of how things should work and how things actually work. And having that framework allowed me to actually identify anomalies. So when I read reflected on my experiences knowing that this framework existed, it allowed me to actually show or explicitly. So like show me like how management leadership, all that stuff failed me because now I know how it should be done, right?
And so being able to make that that difference or figure out that difference between those ideals and the actual ways that things did happen. But then also gathering the tools to understand how it could have been changed, meaning like once it was identified how to remediate, it gave me a lot of lists of understanding of how to understand a framework or where I want to be and how to navigate it to get to where I needed to.
And so I took a lot of my learning about all the stuff that did go wrong in the past in my work history and the ways of mitigating it from an icy individual computer place. And then I put it into this letter. So not ma making sure that there's no gaps for excuses. So if they didn't know about a DH D and dyslexia that was in my letter, about these are the resources you can learn about this stuff.
I talked about my working styles like this is how I'm most optimal. I put that in the letter. Here are the form is the format that I like to receive my, my goals. And so I put that in the letter, I talked about what kind of reinforcement that I need to understand if I'm on the right track. I put that in my letter, I put the like if I'm dyslexic and so if I give you a very short written answer, it's not because I'm mad and pissed off.
It's because it is labor for me to produce text. And so I'm just trying to be efficient with my time and my ability. So if you need more, if there's more questions, please follow up with those, but don't think I'm mad or I'm being cur like I put everything that I've learned that was trauma informed or to say that I, I just want to avoid from all the pitfalls from all of my history. I just wanna preempts much as possible and I just put every single bit of it into this introduction about how I
work. and, kind of like, you know, the last stance, like right before you're being fired or walked out and someone says, well, you haven't done this or you're like this. And then me like saying, why do you think that this is, let me explain. So all that things from, let me explain basically for my history, I just put it there.
Jenn Junod
I love that. And y'all, I, I want to share a bit about how Wesley impacted my journey, actually bring this up while I'm job hunting. I, so I am currently job hunting and I have yet to actually write it out on paper yet. This has been something that has really helped me show up in my job interviews in the fact of people have asked me, they're like, well, what do you want out of a manager or what are you trying to get out of this job or what do you see?
Agnes and everything you just said has really, and I, I read an example of one of his letters of everything you just said, really helped in the fact of being able to talk to my own strengths and weaknesses and how they may show up. So as an example, I have said in interviews when I need out of the manager and the team is to understand that I am really 100% or nothing.
Like I am like, go or not go. I am not a good in between person I really struggle with. I may be able to do like two weeks worth of something in one day compared to, I may seem like a slacker the rest of the time because I'm just exhausted or I may get off track and go into the weeds And I need somebody that understands that to be like, hey Jen, maybe you can refocus over here.
Not as like I'm trying to do this. It's just where my mind goes also. with my dyslexia I've in. So for those not in the technical world, developer relations has very, very many different titles and jobs that go into it on a very high level. Some of it can be like writing blogs, doing videos, speaking, writing content, writing code. And it was me letting people know that I, for being dyslexic, I may not write blogs all the time because that's really hard for me yet.
If they want me to, I will, it just might take a little longer and I may need them to help break down things if I'm not getting it. And I mentioned all of this because I started a live stream called Teach Gen Tech. And a lot of it had to do with the first person I talked to was Wesley in like the devil roles. And Wesley shared that he's dyslexic and I was like, you can be dyslexic and be in this and just what, what this is a thing.
And then I talked to, Ramon who wanted to do peer programming and I was like, what's peer programming? And it's basically where you learn live by somebody helping you learn how to code with streaming the video or recording video. And then the third person, his name is Anthony and he was talking about, I told him about Wesley and I told him about Ramon.
And he's like, then why don't you just start your own show? Mind blown in the fact of learning how we learn ourselves and what we do best. A lot of times will help others, help us, help them succeed. That I think that makes sense.
Wesley Faulkner
Yeah. Just play it back at 0.5 X if you need to.
Jenn Junod
Yes. Yes. That does bring up a question. Have you, do you mostly listen to audio books then, or like podcasts instead of reading? Yep.
Wesley Faulkner
To both.
Jenn Junod
What are some, how fast do you listen to them?
Wesley Faulkner
Usually 1.5?
Jenn Junod
OK. OK. I, I asked this because there's a book that I believe you and I discussed and I would love to hear more of, of things that you've found as helpful of the dyslexic advantage. It's a very, very good book. I learned to listen to audio books instead and our podcast and now I can do the same and I had no idea that I could listen to things on, faster. So, if I'm wearing headphones, I can listen to things at 2.5 speed if I'm not wearing headphones.
So it's like a further away. I, I do need to do it at like two times. And it's all a little different for all of us. What are small techniques or habits that you've found to help get unstuck or make you more productive, like executive dysfunction. Like that's one that I'm curious about for myself too.
Wesley Faulkner
Oh, a lot of the times in order for the getting enough stimuli, I'll listen to this while I'm doing work. So that's another one that helps with unstuck. And try to remove as many barriers as possible. So, I also listen to this while I take a shower, listen to podcasts and audiobooks on a plane specifically. And I use Libby and Hoopla which are apps that when you attach your library card, you can get audio books like you check them out of the library.
So you don't have to worry about feeling like you have to keep spending money or have a, a costly subscription. So I use that a lot. And also it's really good is that these have like, you can put books on hold if they're not available. And so I just keep putting like, when I hear something or like, oh, I need to read that. I'll put it on hold and then when it comes off of hold, I get a notification saying, hey, this is not, this is available tomorrow and if I'm ready for it, I'll check it out.
And I was like, ok, I have my next book that I'm gonna read or there's this delay where you can dump it back in the queue for a certain period of time. And so I will forget which books that I put on hold. But then I get this nice little push notification which tells me which, what is next. And if I don't finish a book, I'll just put it back in the queue and then, really great.
I love Levy for mostly I use it the most. But if you're halfway through reading it and then you haven't finished and you put it back in the queue when it comes back, it'll pick you up right where you left off. So you don't lose your place, which is great and you can do little bookmarks for parts of that you wanna visit and go back and reread or re listens to, which is really great.
But that's for knowledge acquisition, and also of course podcasts or they come in and I just kind of listen to those, but in terms of productivity hacks to help me stay productive. I try to take written notes like I have a my own notebook here in front of me. But what I for the important things or like I try even when I do written notes to transcribe it and move it into my own combine board.
And so Treo Trello is good for that. Asano is good for that. There are several different combine solutions and with the columns that I set up is usually like a backlog. So like not time bound things, but things that I kind of wanna do, I'll put it in that column. And the, there's a, the things that I need to actively work on, I have a column called working.
I'll have another column saying follow up. So I've done something and then I throw it over the fence and I need it to come back send an email and say, hey, what was, can you give me more clarity on this thing that you want me to do whatever? I'll put it in the follow up tab that it's over there and I threw it over the wall and I need it to come back. And so sometimes I forget and say like, oh I'll remember because I'll get an email back and then I'll work on it.
Sometimes those emails don't come back, but you still need to follow up. So I have a follow up to then I have another column that's done. So things that I've accomplished, I'll move it over there, just drag it over. That's really good when it's kind of like review time or you have to do a report or you talk to have a one on one with your manager. They said, what are you, what have you done?
If you have have your done column and what you're working on those are really good for those. And then I have another column that will not do. So there gets to the point where sometimes I have to declare bankruptcy on something or just realize that was too aspirational and I will move it into there. And sometimes when I get stuck, when I have this thing on the to do, list, what I'll do is I'll break it up into smaller task.
So let's say I have to write a report. I might break it up into smaller tasks saying make a new document with the title of the report. Like I didn't do the report, but I've done something to like put a placeholder where I'm put my notes in, make an outline for the report and I will then make that as another task. And then make notes on the outline of the things that I'm gonna put in the report.
And then once they like make my first draft where I just expand on all that and just put the, the pros in there and then the other is like grammar check, then read it through whatever I will just break up those tasks. And so that I'm able to move smaller things into the done list instead of having a big chunk. So if it's, it seems to sit there for a bit, I break that up and then that way I still feel like I'm making progress.
the other thing is delegation. So if sometimes I get stuck in the research phase where I don't know exactly. I, I know I need to do this thing, but there's things that I just don't know what I have to do that education on. Sometimes there are people because I'm dyslexic, I'll have a conversation and that gives me more information than Googling and reading a whole bunch of things.
And so scheduling a meeting for working with a colleague or a person would maybe not even a person who can give me the information, but they can give me another person who can give me the information. That was something that allows me to delegate and move things forward. asking for favors like just putting something like on linkedin or Twitter or whatever to ask questions and wait for those to trickle in the slack groups or whatever.
So, taking advantage of the community itself to help me move me in the right direction of what terms to, that are important. Those are, those are ways that I help kind of move things forward and stay productive. whenever I feel locked up on the executive destruct dysfunction is to kind of just try to take those tasks out of me and figure out a way to tackle it more efficiently.
01 of the thing that just now experimenting with, I love talking to people. I love helping people. And it's, it's almost like a, like a candy where it's so sweet and gooey and I love it so much, but it's not necessarily healthy for me to do that. And so I created for myself, office hours every Friday, I'll say if you wanna talk to me, go to my office hours instead of having these random meetings that I love to do.
But then sometimes can derail me in my work. And so that's something that I'm experiment with with now to kind of like still feel like it can help people, but just time box it to only one day a week so I can try to be more efficient.
Jenn Junod
I love that. And that's, that reminds me something that I really admired about you when we first met is you knew your boundaries and then you were like, hey, yeah, you can follow up with me with like maybe a question here or there, but I don't have time to like, I'm paraphrasing here y'all because I did, this was like four months ago but like handhold and, like, answer like a ton of stuff. And I found it really powerful because you knew how to respect your own time.
Wesley Faulkner
And I was like, well to set expectations because I also don't want you to reach out and then I dropped the ball or, I give you the answer like, three weeks later than you needed to. I just wanted to make sure that we were, that you knew. Exactly. Not just for me saying, like I can't deal with it, but also just so that you don't feel like that you put all your eggs in one basket that you can diversify your ask and because you'll know that I'm just restricted in, in, in that regard.
Jenn Junod
And, and that was really helpful because again, like I, I already was planning on meeting with more people, but it made me go, ok, I definitely need to find more people to reach out to on this journey. And I say that in the fact of this is a conversation for another day, but like if you're looking for mentors or you're looking for people in an industry or doing something that you don't know how to do is just in my own journey, Wesley, like you set that up really well.
So thank you. just for a little bit of insight because we talked about a Can Man Board. What is Kanan. I'm Googling. I googled it. So I'm gonna read this from here. Kanban is a popular framework used to implement Agile and devo software development it requires. OK. I'm just gonna paraphrase this of, it's basically everything you just said of a to do what you're need to follow up on what you're working on, what is stuck, what you've completed and I like that you added an additional one
of you're just not gonna do it. Something that I get stuck on and now I'm just curious. I really liked how you mentioned that you needed to break down a report and start with the smaller steps. This might be a very silly question.
Wesley Faulkner, Jenn Junod
But y'all, this is a good way to learn from others is ask the silly questions anyway because other people may be stuck on it too or there are no stupid questions, only stupid people, no joking.
Wesley Faulkner
Go ahead.
Jenn Junod
When you, because a lot of times y'all the way I envision it for Kanban boards and the ones I've used is the kind of like sticky notes on a wall where to do a report would be like one sticky note. When you break that down into the smaller task. Do you create those tasks within the sticky note or do you create them out as their own sticky notes?
Wesley Faulkner
Depends on how many lists there are and what, how top of mind it is because if I put it inside, then sometimes once I, I mentioned kind of like if it's not visible, then I forget about it. If, if it's something where like, I'll just come back to that later and it's less of a priority, I'll put it in. Like if someone says, hey, where's this thing or whatever?
I was like, oh, let me just check and like, oh yeah, I just need to do that. I'll, I'll, I'll get to it later or whatever, depending on where it is on my priority list. If it's higher priority, like something's more urgent, I will make it its own card. And I will retire the the parent one and then just have these different ones with the tag of saying this is I outline for this tag outline or, or like details for this tag or whatever and I'll just have that as several different cards. And then
that does two things visually, one that shows me there, but two, it actually elongates it and it feels like wow, this is a big task and makes it so that I feel like when I look at my to do list and I see a long list of things, I feel like OK, yes, I can't take on more. There is more that I that I'm at capacity without this thing. I was like, yeah, I can do more. I can take on more things, so I see my list getting so long that I'm like, whoa, I shouldn't, I shouldn't opt in to more work.
Jenn Junod
I love that. And just something that I really want to pull out of this that I want people to really think of is this is a big reason why many, many that have some type of neuro diversion may not be able to talk to what they did because they don't necessarily always see everything that goes into a really big project. Like you ran a report for a lot of people. They may be able to speak to all of the details that go into it and that it is a lot of work. But for a lot of people, if it's not broken down,
they may not realize everything they did to be able to talk to it and why it took them so long. So thank you so much for putting words to that as well as putting words to an earlier part of the conversation where I was talking about like helping challenge those around me and radical candor and having that compassion. I was like, you literally just put words to what I was trying to say. But like the way I meant to say it, can I show you something?
Wesley Faulkner
I'm gonna show you something. Hold on.
Jenn Junod
OK.
Wesley Faulkner
All right. So this is the packet I created for the workshop. And I talk about a little, a lot of different things, but just gonna, hm. And, here's a slide that talks about my evolution, it's gonna be hard to read, but there's three boxes here. The first one is learning. So, doing a lot of reading and research and, this is the kind of the, the thing that I did to kind of build that vocabulary that I talked about before.
it's hard to describe things without having words for it or ways to, to kind of like lock on to an idea. And there's this, I know we're over time. So I'm gonna go really quickly about this story. There's a story about this person who is like found like in a jungle or something like that. They were abandoned as a kid and they grew up with animals and they didn't have language, they never learned how to speak or talk because they didn't know one taught them.
And then when they were found, they're educated, they're, they got taught a language and the question was asked to the person, what were your dreams like? And the person said, I didn't have dreams. And if you don't have language, you cannot attach concepts to things which actually inhibits your ability to actually retain and to develop those thoughts.
And so I did a lot of learning just so I understood I could have a framework or things I could attach to my brain so that I could really understand these things so I could put words to them in order to communicate and to think about them. Then I moved on to self acceptance where understanding like a lot of the meta cognition stuff that I did the, the thinking about thinking and learning about how people think that being different doesn't mean that I'm outside the standard.
It just means that I'm one of many which have totally accepted ways of being. And so once I was understanding that I was part of a cluster instead of a dot outside of a bell curve, it made it so much easier for me to just be myself because that's OK. And then I formed my new path with, with me shirking all these narratives that I was told of how to be how to be fixed a a way of getting along with me, releasing those rules or constraints. I now created my own of like, how am I gonna judge if I'm
doing the right thing or if I'm moving in the right direction. And so I created my own rules for the things that I wanna be. What is acceptable to me, what kind of person that I wanna be. And that is how I moved forward after that. So those are the three steps of my evolution that got me to where I am. But the very first piece is being able to build up that vocabulary so that I can really put, worse things and concepts to work with us.
Jenn Junod
I absolutely love that and that's something that, I feel like a lot of people wonder, how do you go from unlearning the bad things to, you know, open space to the good, I, I say bad things, good habits, bad habits, good habits, like things that we've learned that, of frameworks that we're told we have to be a certain way and that is such a good way of, of putting vocabulary to it.
So thank you for sharing that. And I, I feel like you might have answered the next couple of questions, but you know, just to make sure, do you have anything else that you wanted to cover today that we haven't yet?
Wesley Faulkner
apologies, but my dog is barking so hopefully you could hear this through the barking. But so you, you mentioned good things and bad things and I talked about the framework, some of it is good. Some of it's bad depending on how it affects you. But what was important is to understand that there is also the dual side of it. Like when someone says, for instance, I, I talked about like how sometimes I use less words.
I don't really expound on things and sometimes I'll use a word to me that means like five different words. And then someone told me that instead of me being too curt or brief, they said that the words that I use or the way that I put things is poetic. And so when you're thinking or going through this thing about all these things that I'm bad at all my skills that I'm criticized for.
remember that there is a positive spin and then you also need to take, make sure that you can use that positive spin to your advantage. If for, for instance, if someone says that, you know, you wait till the last minute of something that means that maybe you work better under stress for on, on a deadline. or maybe you call it efficient instead of being like you, you're efficient with your time because that's when you use it is when you need it.
So whatever negatives that are floating around that either you've told yourself or people told you realize that there is a positive spin to it and that is also your story and that is what you need to also realize that not everything is negative. One other thing that I wanted to say because we do think differently and because there are things that I can do that other people can't.
Sometimes I used to confuse with effort and worth. Sometimes I'll do something and it'll just be to me low effort. And to me, I felt like that was low worth. But sometimes the thing that you can do that someone can't, that is extremely valuable. And just because you, it is low effort on your part doesn't mean it needs to be devalued. Totally.
Jenn Junod
Ok. My mind is going in so many different places all at once. first off y'all, if we need to do a Wesley recap at some point about what you just said, Wesley let us know we will because, I got everything you were saying, but hopefully everyone else does too. there will be a transcript on the website. So worst case you can go look that up and then on your last point and this is something that really impacted me about.
something you said during our first conversation, I'm gonna try to recap. It was just because something is easy to me does not mean that it's a skill that is not a skill. I think that's what I'm trying to say. Yes. It's you were explaining that the very first time because to me networking and talking to people and you know, making mistakes in public and just like just having fun with it all is something that's so natural to me that I never realized that it's not where other people go.
Like they can be very, very structured. And you, you saying that during our first conversation of just because it's easy, doesn't mean it's not a skill has really changed my mindset to what you just said of that negativity to a positive thing and being able to talk about my skill set now.
So y'all just go follow Wesley on like everything because there's always like knowledge drops and little nuggets of goodness. Is there anything any words of wisdom that you would like to give the audience?
Wesley Faulkner
if you can say it, you can survive it? So if you don't want to talk to the internet, talk to a friend, talk to family, talk to a counselor. If you're struggling with something internally, don't take that fight 100% on your, your own. Find someone to talk to, doesn't matter who it is. Find a stranger even on the street, but just, you know, if you can say it, you can survive it. So if you're struggling, please please tell someone.
Jenn Junod
Thank you for that. And damn, so many knowledge drops from Wesley today. What is, how do people reach out to you if they wanna have questions, follow up or see your work?
Wesley Faulkner
Don't send me a linkedin request. I'll tell you that. I but you can reach out to me on Twitter. That's my network of choice. My D MS are open so feel free to contact me there. If you do want to have more of an interactive conversation, I mentioned that I have my office hours that I'm starting. I'm not launching that publicly until December. But if you go to coffee.com/wesley 83 you'll see my tiers and you can subscribe now and coffee is spelled ko dash F i.com/wesley 83.
there's some early bird specials that make it cheaper if you get in now before I make it public. So if that's something you're considering, go ahead and do that, before the prices go up. but, that's what I'm trying to do in terms of the time box, like I said, all of my, inquiries, and in a format that works best for me, which is meetings, I love talking. But when people wanna chat back and forth, that actually is a drain for me. So that's what I'm doing.
Jenn Junod
Definitely. Thank you and beautiful humans. As you know, you can find us at shit to talk about on Twitter, Instagram, linkedin, Facebook, the website, all of the things, the podcast is shit you don't want to talk about. We turn it into shit to talk about to break down those barriers and you can always follow us on Patreon to be able to get a new episodes earlier as well as help us out and donate. And last but not least Wesley, what is something you're grateful for?
Wesley Faulkner
I'm grateful to you, Jen, for giving me the space to talk about this and to sharing your own story about like the impact that my words had on you and your journey that makes it feel very worth it to kind of expose myself on a regular basis. And that I, I feel like I am impactful into the world, like I'm making a difference. And so that, that, that feels really good. So I'm really grateful for you.
Jenn Junod
Thank you. And you kind of took mine. Gosh, in the fact that I'm really grateful for you and y'all, you how to say this, it doesn't mean that you always have to go, like, find that person that made an impact on you like seven years ago. I mean, you're welcome to and I bet they would love to hear that, that you're grateful for it and I just appreciate what you put in the world in the fact that our first conversation really helped me get unstuck with so much that I was in my head for. And it has
really given me the opportunity to encourage others to do the same and to share their stories and how unknowingly we may impact each other. And thank you for just being you like you, you just show up and you're, you know, you don't hang out on the bench. You are in the game, hanging out, being there for yourself and being there for others and your actions really teach the rest of us a lot. And thank you Wesley and to all the beautiful humans listening, we will see you next week. Bye bye.
