S1 E8 Shit2TalkAbout Anger with Patrick Monette
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Jenn Junod
Hey, thank you for joining. Shit. You don't want to talk about as it says in the title. This is Sh!t You Don’t Want to Talk About this can have explicit content. We do cuss and we don't censor and it could be content that's not suitable for kids under the age of 13. That being said, kiddos, please ask your parents to listen. If you wanna listen to one of these episodes, parents, please use your best judgment. If you are gonna allow your kids to listen to this. This is content that I wish I
knew when I was a kid yet. It does involve explicit content and there are trigger warnings for both kiddos and adults read the description to read what it's about because there are way too many topics that we talk about that could be trigger warnings for any of us. We do wish you the best and we really want to have this podcast out there to change shit. You don't want to talk about to Shit2TalkAbout. So we all have help and no longer feel alone. Much love. Enjoy the episode.
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Jenn Junod
Let's get started. Hey, Patrick, thank you for joining shit. You don't want to talk about today, please give us a quick intro and let us know the shit that you want to talk about.
Patrick Monette
Hi, Jen. Thank you so much for inviting me here. I'm so excited to be with you. So I am a licensed mental health counselor and I am in a private practice in Northern New York.
Jenn Junod
Very awesome. And what shit do you want to talk about today?
Patrick Monette
Well, I was thinking, you know, why don't we talk a little about anger? Because that's one of the theories that I love getting into.
Jenn Junod
I like, there's like, that brings up like two emotions, like in the fact that anger can be really good for people that hide those emotions and never let it out and then also can be bad when you just, you know, they don't have any control of anger.
Patrick Monette
Exactly. And one of the things, excuse me that I love to focus on is I do a lot of anger management groups as well as individual therapy, but I also do coaching as well where I try to incorporate some of the, information and education into everything that I do because so many people deal with anger and they don't even know how they deal
with anger. And it's, it's one of the relationships to our emotions that I find people can find the, the deepest answers, the deepest blockages and the deepest motivation.
Jenn Junod
Oh, that is, that is fascinating. I'm excited about that before we get started. What got you into becoming a therapist? Like a counselor, like that journey is so different for each of us.
Patrick Monette
Right. And it's a really good question. So, I had actually been living in South America for a few years and I came back home and I was feeling sort of lost, you know, I think if you've ever gone from one country to another, it's, it's a big transition when you come back because it's, it's just every aspect of you is changing and you're just trying to acclimate back into a new world in a way, even though you're from there.
Patrick Monette, Jenn Junod
But anyway, reverse culture shock, reverse culture shock.
Jenn Junod
I've experienced it many times. Reverse culture shock. It's a thing.
Patrick Monette
Yes. And so I, I knew I had known that I wanted to go back to grad school. I just didn't know for what and I started looking into counseling programs and some of the answers seem a little superficial at this time. But it's, it's the truth is I wanted a job where I didn't have to wear a tie where I could have my long hair and where I had a lot of flexibility.
Very cool, very cool because it just had wanted to be I, and what that really comes down to is I just wanted to be authentic. I wanted to be who, who I wanted to be. And I wanted as many opportunities professionally as I could have, I didn't want to choose a career where it would be cookie cutter, you know, stuck at a desk for the rest of my life without any, any real sense of adventure or change.
So, after that I, I went and I applied and got into grad school and fell in love with it. Absolutely. you know, so many different aspects, so many different components and, and fields and specialties that you can get into. And I had the opportunity to have a lot of different internships when I was in the program.
So I was able to work with various populations and see which ones I was drawn to and other ones that although I respect it wasn't really my calling. and then being able to, to pull that into is when I graduated, getting into the field and, and seeing what I wanted to specialize in.
Jenn Junod
Very cool. And I know that this was a little glossed over, but I think it's something that so many people don't think of is that reverse culture shock. And what first off, what brought you to South America? Like where did you go? How long you were you there? And then how did you handle that? Reverse culture shock?
Patrick Monette
I went so my undergrad degree is Spanish and Latin American studies and for part of the degree you had to study abroad for at least a semester. So, yeah, it was, it was awesome. Well, it was really funny because I, I, I'm one of those people who believe in science and when things feel right. And when, when there's just things, you know, just that energy flows and I had originally thought of going to Spain but it just never felt right.
It didn't feel connected. And then I saw this picture of Vol Paraiso Chile in South America. And when I saw this picture, my instant reaction was that feels like home to me. That's so cool. And it was amazing. So I went down for planned for one semester and then I said, I really don't wanna go home.
I don't really wanna go back. I'm really loving this. So I ended up finishing my undergraduate undergrad degree in Chile. So I, you know, completed everything I stayed in Chile. I came home for a couple months. and then I went back for almost two more years.
Jenn Junod
And then after that, how, so how long ago was that that you left? Let's, let's, when was the last time you lived there?
Patrick Monette
Early 2000.
Jenn Junod
OK. And you've been back since then? Yes, there. OK. And then, oh, so many, so many questions I'm working on this because I my first international trip with work well, for me to be able to go international with my old job, they were like you need to go dr travel by yourself and see if you can actually handle it. And so many people I knew wanted to go on a trip to Machu Picchu and I feel like that's such a weird, like, I didn't know I wanted to go to Machu Picchu.
I guess I wanted to go to Machu Picchu just because everybody else did in Peru. And it's, it's such a different culture. And, I did pay for some tours there and I find it really cool because, the, a couple that I was with, on that one of the tours was from Chile and they were the culture in South America in general. It, if you try with the language, like, I don't know, Spanish, I wish I did. I, and that is something I can change, you know, if I actually concentrate on it is, is some of the
kindest people I've ever met. And the most welcoming and that was at least for me going into the reverse. culture shock for myself is, and I, I don't know if it's like this in Chile is there's a lot more focus on family and take like relationships than on the aesthetics and, you know, high tech items and the way the buildings look and cars and that type of thing. Did you see that when you were in Chile or was that a different experience for you?
Patrick Monette
Well, it's really funny that you asked that because I was actually a tour guide for a while. So I I really got to see the history and the beauty of the his, like, because I think when you're looking at history, it's magical because you're looking at all these different time frames. And so one of the things is in one of the main plazas in Santiago.
Chile is, you know, they had the coup in 1973 and you can actually see in the buildings where the bullet holes are. So it was just like this, you know, you, I was reading about it because I was studying literature at the time. And so you, you're reading this, this, you know, just like anywhere, whether it's in the States or whether it's in Chile, but it, to be the tour guide is like, you're not only knowing the story but you're selling it to someone else.
So then you, you know, you're, you're creating that visualization of as a tour, as a tourist. And you're doing this tour with me. I want you to be able to transport yourself back into this time and see it and being able to see the different and Chile is so amazing because the country is so diverse, depending if you're the north, the central or the south.
It's, it's, it's so many different worlds. One of the things that surprised me when I was there was that they really, at that time, they really took Sunday as a day of rest and most things were actually closed, which coming from the States coming from the States. I was like, but wait, why don't we go to the, if everything's closed? I'm like, ok.
Patrick Monette, Jenn Junod
So I guess, you know, it forced me to learn how to relax and take time and, and slow down that, that, that is something that I, I learned in Peru as well.
Jenn Junod
I was there for two weeks and one. I did a, I was in, Mira Miraflores, which is the Hoity Toity suburb from what I understand of Lima, the capital there. And the tour guide actually, we did, I did two tours. One tour took me to a lot of the museums and learning. Oh my gosh. To all of the listeners, please go on tours with tour guides. It is so magical like you were explaining because they took me to, I don't remember names whatsoever, but like the most, the well known church in Lima and it's
magical being able to hear the history that you're not going to know if you just go there. And for myself, I'm not a, I have a hard time with reading. I'm very, very dyslexic. So being able to go with a tour guide to the museums was just, they explained the things and why they were important instead of just, hey, this is a bull from ancient times.
And they also in Peru, they at least explained how you know, Catholicism came in and how the Peruvian language is slowly going away because it's not actually taught in schools or anything. And then also, like, the other tour I went on is because I went with a couple that was from Chile. our tour guide was like, well, I don't know if you want to go to, like, the actual food area, Jen. Like, that's what kind of like most Americans find that sketchy.
And I'm like, well, if this couple says it's cool, I'm down and I got to try, piranha and piranha eyeball and seeing the chickens, like, you know, just skinned and hanging out and hanging everywhere. That was in such a short time. What is, what are some of your memories that you enjoyed the most from living in Chile?
Patrick Monette
So the, the city that I lived in is called Valparaiso and it's a port city and it is one of the most beautiful places in Chile because it's made up of, it's sort of like an amphitheater if you ever look at pictures of it and it's made up of 43 different little hills and, and I don't remember all the specifics of the history, but when you look at it, all of the houses are painted different colors because historically, there is an issue with paint and finances.
So they just took, you know what they could, but it's the most picturesque part where you can just walk and you do these hills and you, you go in these little crevices and they have like a little cafes and shops and you can just be walking and run into people and then you're right by the Majestic Sea. It's just, it's absolutely beautiful and get seafood meal and, and just like, it's just magical because you just get that ocean air.
Whenever you're walking around, it's just, and, and they have plazas everywhere. You know, because they get so much tourism, it's, you feel really safe walking around, which, which I appreciated of, you know, just being in a different place. You know, there are always people that I could ask for directions, there was always shops and, and people, I, I just always felt really safe there and just being able to walk outside and view by the ocean and, and, and also be able to, you know,
jump away, go to somewhere that's historical that they, they just have this one plaza. That's really cool. That's like an outdoor museum where the, the, the flooring is sort of glass and they open, it's just like really cool where you can go down underneath on holidays and stuff and go into this outdoor museum that's underground. And then of course, you just start, you're walking and then you go into a little bakery, you know, just for nourishment, of course, and you get some, you
know, just delicious, you know, chili and goods and stuff to, to enjoy the walk that was making me want to go. One of my favorite parts of just being able to walk. Yeah. Oh, it's totally, it's, it's, it's beautiful.
Patrick Monette, Jenn Junod
Anytime I see pictures of it it brings tears to my eyes because it just brings so much love and, and so many amazing memories and such a fun, adventurous time of my life that I think really, shaped me and, and forced me out of my comfort zone and forced me to face some of my own issues and, and helped me to understand what it's like to be the minority in a different culture and to learn how to appreciate my culture, but also how to, to develop it and to be able to integrate pieces of other
people's culture that I can, I spent, as I said, two weeks in Peru and then three months in Europe, going from country to country for work and being able, as you said, just feeling like the minority and traveling alone makes, as I would tell people, makes you deal with your demons because there's no one else there like you're in charge of yourself.
Jenn Junod
I remember that this was the first time and what taught me that it's OK to be alone. I've lived alone and I still hated it. And I, after I traveled, I'm like, oh, it's cool. I'll go to lunch by myself or I'll go to you know, a coffee shop and work by myself. And I never did that. Before traveling. And one thing that I really dealt with and this is to bring it back around also to the anger part. I don't know if you experienced this, but each time that I came back from traveling, I almost became so
angry at the, the luxuries we have in the US and take and the entitlement and how people don't realize how lucky we are and also how the rest of the world normally knows what's going on in the US. But the US doesn't really know what's going on in the rest of the world. How did you experience that coming home?
Patrick Monette
You know, it's really can, I just kind of like go a sidestep real quick but it, it pertains to what we're talking about is I actually experienced that worse in high school because I had gone on a trip, a mission trip to Nicaragua. Ok. And so, so Chile is, is modern. It's, you know, it has everything, it's, you know, it's, it's like being in a major city, right?
But Chile is, is a third world, you know, situation where that is when I was a teenager and came back. That's when I dealt with a, a lot of anger, a lot of confusion. I i it was triggering to go into a Walmart after I came back because I just left a place where, you know, kids who are just being kids like are on dirt floor. So that was, that was harder for me to integrate because I might break, it broke something in me.
And I think when I came back from Chile, there was a, I don't know if anger was the one that I felt lost. I felt like I didn't belong anymore and it wasn't like I love the States. I love my family. I love everything. You know, there's, there's so many amazing things here, but there is, there is magic that if that's the only way I can explain it that when I'm in another country I feel and there, I just have a really strong connection to, to to Spanish and the Latino culture and, and all of those
sort of things and the foods like you were saying like Peru, I actually just went there for the first time a few years ago with a Chilean friend of mine. So I know what you like. And when you, if you go Machu Picchu, it's everything they say. It's, it's an experience, it's, it is, it is. And I think as you were saying, it makes you face your fears, it breaks you out of your cocoon of and I don't say this in a bad way, but just a privilege that we all create in our own world of all right, I'm gonna
go and get my coffee here. I'm gonna do this and it makes you challenge yourself and, and see where for me, I'll keep it in the eye. It's, it showed me where a lot of my insecurities were of that. Maybe we're more protected when I'm in the States.
Jenn Junod
Yeah. I would, for, I, it was the first time that one thing that I had, I've had a really, really hard time realizing my entire life is, I definitely get into my head and think everyone's judging me as I go, like, no matter what I'll be, I've sat in a coffee shop and I'm like, they're judging me. They're looking at me. I have to fix my hair. I have to fix like, oh my God, I can't believe they're judging me and I wouldn't enjoy the experience and having to travel alone as you said, like, really
broke me out of my cocoon. One thing that I do also wanna circle back on and traveling is a privilege and something that so many people are a I would say scared of doing even if they have the means to do it and there's people that don't have the means to do it and want to travel. And I, I would say just in the conversations we're having I feel like we're both have came from a more privileged background to be able to have these
life opportunities. And what would do you have any suggestions for people that want to travel and may not see how they could ever make that happen or possibilities there?
Patrick Monette
Yeah, that's a really good question. one of, there's so many great resources out there and I am always learning about like, you know, my first thing is like, how I can improve my finances, how I can learn different ways to save. And because, you know, I know what it's like, you know, when money is really tight when it's just hard, especially everything in the last two years that the world has gone through.
But there's so many creative ways and, and different money coaches out there and podcasts and, and free articles that help you redefine your relationship with money. And so I would say that's kind of do it because one of the things that II, I like what you said, it's like it is a privilege to travel, but I also want to enjoy it like, and I think you have to also know what kind of traveling you want to do.
Are you, you know, I, I like to research and take the time to plan it. And, you know, I also, I try to be a bargain chopper of when is the best time to go somewhere. Where can I get the flights? Where can I do this? Am I going alone? You know, I turn it into an adventure because if this is something I'm putting this much energy into, I want it to be fulfilling and I wanted to also not break the bank.
Jenn Junod
I, as you're saying that I, I realized excuse me, I, I also want to mention that there are for different groups and age ranges. There are options to be able to get sponsorship for travel for like having like working while you're traveling or volunteering as you're traveling and your travel is paid for. I know for myself and later on on the podcast, we'll actually have a financial coach.
Come on and I know for myself it's been the relationship I have with money was really changing the mindset from scarcity to abundance. Because living in the life of scarcity is I could never imagine if you asked me 10 years ago, if, if people, even when I was a teen teenager, when I was like going through all this shit, that's in my background, like I never in a million years would have ever imagine that a I could travel or that work would have sent me or anything like that.
That it was really changing my mindset from scarcity to abundance and everything, not just money. And that's one thing that a lot of like personal development groups like I've taken landmark forum, which is a very popular. One, starting block is one I've taken. there's another one like Matthew Hassey retreat and those all started helping me with the mindset of and working through my stuff.
So that way I could see more in the future and I just want to bring it back around because a lot of that has a lot to do with our own internal it issues. We'll say that, you know, what we're struggling with internally. And I know I've dealt a lot with anger at myself and I made it much more internal than external. A lot of people can have that anger that goes to and wanting to, you know, yell and scream at other people where I very much internalized my own, with self harm, you know, not setting
boundaries, not, you know, having in spending time by myself, how, what's your experience been with the those who you work with for anger? Like what you mentioned earlier, what you specialize in and with your groups and your coaching and your therapy yet? How does someone even approach that to go? Hey, I have an anger issue.
Patrick Monette
The, the first thing that I do is sort of assess why they're coming to see me. Is it because of the themselves? Is it because of a referral? Is someone, you know, where they are? I want to assess where the problems are because we sometimes people can be in denial or in confusion about their anger related issues. And one of the approaches that I've learned to take is, is really from a place of validation in being trauma informed of saying, you know, if you're coming to me and someone's
saying that you have an anger issue that's telling me that there is some sort of need that's being expressed in a way that's not adaptive for you. And my job isn't to take the anger away. It's not to eliminate anger. It's to help you develop your relationship with your anger. And for some people that's more passive, some are more passive aggressive and some are more aggressive.
Jenn Junod
Can you give me examples of each of those?
Patrick Monette
Sure. So for example, a passive person might be someone who just sort of wants to be the chameleon in the wall and doesn't want to make any decisions, doesn't want to make any commitments, will follow, will, will never follow through with commitments, will try to avoid conflict at all costs. They're sort of like, you know, the doormats of life, the people that we might know or we've never been there where I'm just not going to have an opinion.
I'm not gonna say anything. I'm just gonna do what everyone else does because then no one will ever get angry at me. They're so afraid of anger that they avoid it at all costs. OK? And then passive aggressive has a little bit more fire to it where they're going to do more things with sarcasm, with passive aggressive comments and, and I hate using the word in the definition, but it just kind of comes out sometimes where they'll say something to you, but then they'll say something
behind your back triangulation. A lot of, a lot of aggression, but in the way where they deny that they're actually doing it. So there's a lot of like, smoke and mirrors of, I'm gonna use humor to really, you know, verbally attack you. But then I'm just gonna say, well, you know, that's just a joke. You know, that's how I am. And aggressive is where there's much more, I'm in your face.
There's that element of a threat or intimidation, like I'm going to overpower you with my aggression. And what people really want to be getting into is what we call assertiveness, which is learning how to have healthy boundaries, healthy communication skills and to be able to work through conflict with people instead of trying to bulldoze them into what we want.
Jenn Junod
OK. And so to repeat that back to you just to make sure I understand the examples with passive, it's like, hey, I'm just gonna do whatever everybody else wants to do, but I'm gonna hold a lot of resentment in the fact that I'm avoiding all the anger and not having any conflict, but then I'm having a resentment towards them or towards myself. Would you say that's kind of what passive shows up as?
Patrick Monette
Yes, yes.
Jenn Junod
OK. And then like passive-aggressive would be like, hey, so you didn't show up on Sunday but you know, like I figured it out anyway, ha ha just joking, I know you are busy, right?
Patrick Monette
OK.
Jenn Junod
And then aggressive is more like what the fuck you didn't show up on Sunday. Why didn't you show up like you were supposed to be there? Like you just let me down, man. Yeah.
Patrick Monette
And I, yeah, and in your face definitely in your face. OK. OK.
Jenn Junod
That's like the, the opposite I am.
Patrick Monette
So I'm like, how do you do that one? Right?
Patrick Monette, Jenn Junod
So anger comes in, in so many different flavors and I don't think I ever thought about it as a how the passive is in anger. Yet I can still see it now how you've described it because what it is is, emotions are energy.
Patrick Monette
And if I'm suppressing my anger, if I'm suppressing my disappointment, my resentment that's going to build in my system and it's got to come out because it's like poison. We're not meant to store that energy in our body. So it's going to come out with. So maybe in more passive people, I might see more depression. I might see more anxious or more anxiety, you know, traits. Whereas, you know, with the aggressive people, they are more the ones that are more exploding.
They're the ones who might be throwing things or, you know, getting into fights or it, it, it, it all depends on how they maintain it. We also see when people aren't, people don't have a good relationship with their emotions, we see more addictive traits. So, you know, emotional eating binge watching sex drug, you know, all these different components to kind of mask and suppress that anger and the pain that's really underneath the anger.
Jenn Junod
Interesting. one thing that, and I don't know if you've seen this or agree with it. there's a book called The Body Keeps The Score and I will look up who's it by? If you've never read it, it is something that realized how much I internalize because I'm, I would say I was, I was like a mixture of all three because I'd be passive for so long and then I would just like explode and be really bitchy and very controlling, like very controlling.
And one thing that I've over all these years of working on it to getting where I'm at right now is the fact that when I read that book, the body keeps the score, I found out how so many of my internal issues like my body issues, like I would get hives or, you know, I would feel sick all the time was because of that poison. I was keeping inside of me. Do you see that in your patients too? Ok. Cool. I love that book too.
Patrick Monette
But yeah, it's great. It's, and if it's awesome, it's a great book. I see it in myself and I see it in people. You know, I, I tend to find that my experience is he may be a better clinician because if I'm, if I'm keeping it real and being human and being humble, we, we all struggle with these different issues. We all struggle with them in different ways.
But the main ingredients are all the same that you know, we're human, we hurt people, hurt us, we hurt others. Life happens. It's how do we deal with pain? How do we deal with disappointment? How do we deal with trauma and we all develop different coping skills. And some more people are more the suppression and more people are the more explosive. And going back to what you asked me a few minutes ago is I have open discussions with my people of how are they seeing it manifest in a
nonjudgmental way? It's like my job isn't there to judge them or to, you know, shame them. It's to help them. See. Wow, if you're really getting pissed off, if you're breaking shit, let's figure out what needs to be broken. What do you need to get out? And maybe I can give you some different approaches that will do it where you're not feeling drained, where you're not feeling ashamed where that cycle of violence or anger can finally be broken
Jenn Junod
time that, oh, that's a, that's a very, very great answer in the fact. I, I don't think many of us think about how we go through cycles and how to break those cycles no matter where we're at on that passive to explosive or suppression to explosive. Like you said, what are some, could you give us a tip for each type of, you know, passive
or passive aggressive and aggressive. Could you give us some tips where just, somebody, someone might be able to try to break those cycles or identify those cycles even?
Patrick Monette
Yeah. Absolutely. It's a really great question. the, the one thing I always start, you know, keep it simple because when we're in pain and this is, I can say from my experience when I'm in pain, I don't need something convoluted. I don't need a coping skill. That's, that's really difficult to do. I need something like a first aid kit. I need something that's gonna help in the moment.
And one of the things that I do is I teach them some sort of measurement of their anger. And I, I always remember, I don't know if you had this when I was, I think kindergarten or first grade when they're teaching you the temperature and you know, they have the giant thermometers like it's going up and down. That's what, that's how I visualize anger. It's like, are we down where it's cool and, and comfortable and you're like kind of like a cool, cool cucumber or is it rising or is it
exploding and really going to that red and asking yourself the one of the questions and, and people always roll their eyes when I ask them. It's like, what are you feeling throughout the day? Start a journal of saying, wow, I lost my shit at two o'clock? What was going on, just start looking at it. Sort of like a map maker of putting the information in to because what you're really doing is deciphering your own internal language. Does that make sense?
Jenn Junod
It does make sense. I, I'm working through, in my head, I know how to identify what I feel and, or work through those items. And something that I've realized is not everyone has that emotional vocabulary. Like I know, for example, if I get off of a call and I'm, you know, feeling upset, I can go, oh, I'm agitated because
of XYZ. And this is so do they need to put the Y or do they just need to put at this moment? I'm feeling agitated. I just got a call, just got off a call even though I don't know why
Patrick Monette
I don't want to give a blanket answer because I think everyone has different needs what I try to do. It, it all depends on the level of awareness. If they had your Yeah, I'm irritated and this is why that might work. If people aren't even aware that they're agitated, then I'm gonna go even back and go like baby, baby steps. So that's where I ask them.
I'll introduce emotions of, I want you like, if you get a feelings chart it, I'm just trying to like give a, give a really broad vision because if they don't know what their emotions, I have to give them the language. You know, it's, it's like going to France and not speaking France, French. Wow, you're going to learn, you know, b you're going to learn some of the basic words.
It's the same thing with our emotions. And part of the work that I try to do is help people understand. What education do you have on your emotions? Do you use emotional vocabulary? Do you not, it's, once again, it's not judgment but it's assessing the problem. What are we working with? So that's where and what I'll say is like when I'm running a group, I'll say.
All right, let's do a check in which is just your first name and how you're feeling good, bad. OK. All right. Aren't feeling words? I want to add happy. I will give examples and because it's really learning a new language for a lot of people. And so what I want them to do is figure out what they're feeling positive, negative or neutral. If you're feeling calm, if you're feeling chill, if you're feeling agitated, just write it down and maybe like what's going on around it because we're
going to analyze it. And then if you're having, for example, like you're feeling agitated, one of the aspects that I always teach people is emotions are, are like a layered cake. The anger is the frosting on the cake and we have to decipher what the cake is made out of. So you can be really angry or agitated. But underneath that agitation is their shame is their fear is their sadness because that's where a lot of the emotional turmoil and pain gets stuck.
Jenn Junod
Is there any resources that outside of therapy that you know of that give people a space to learn emotional language and feeling language? You can think on it. You can let me know afterwards.
Patrick Monette
Yeah, I I'll have to because there's so many great resources I have to say this is one area that I'm really developing in my work that I love is, is really actually working with men. OK? Because I feel in my own experience as a man and working with men, there, there's a limitation in so many cases where men are allowed to be content or pissed off. And so when, when people are saying when they're, you know, they don't have any other language. So one of the books that I always recommend and I
can send you some other ones is by John Kim. I used to be a miserable fuck. OK? And what that does is it really goes into an emotional wellness of what men go through. And of course, everyone of any gender can, can read it and get something out of it. But he writes it from a man's perspective, you know, in, in his journey and learning how to say there are a lot of blockages that prevent people in general from really developing a healthy emotional relationship themselves.
Jenn Junod
And, and I'm really glad you brought that up because a big reason there's like a few main topics of what caused me to start this podcast. And it's like the BOC community and, you know, also our asian-american, our Asian community as well, not just asian-american, but the what goes into their mental health, the LGBT Q plus community and then a huge focus for me is men's mental health.
I think we talked about that during the intro call, but I forgot to mention it before. This is, I think that really does relate back into anger because that's considered, you know, an OK way of showing things. And I can only imagine for myself with my, my partner, Tyler, he, he's able to be like the calming source out of everything. And when we're going through, you know, hard times together where it's an external thing, we do work really well together and we're on the same team yet.
He is my safe that he is who I go to for comfort. He is who can calm me down through my panic attacks or I will probably always battle with self-harm issues that when I download spiral and I'm in therapy to help deal with that. But, you know, whatever relationship I'm in will, will have to deal with it with me. It's, it's not something that I can hide and I can only imagine the shit he builds up and holds on to because I want to be there for him as well yet I know that he doesn't necessarily want
to burden me with it. A because he's concerned we talked about this a bit. He's concerned, I'm gonna take it personal and that's something I'm working on as well. It's more of, it's a different dynamic and I, I would love how you would suggest two men to like a kind of learn how to talk about it and create that safety with
themselves, with their friends, with their relationships to not build up because correct me if I'm wrong. But men's suicide rates are much higher than women's suicide rates.
Patrick Monette
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And it's, it's so hard. There's this, I'll have to send it to you. I think his name is Tony Parker. He does this amazing youtube Ted Talk video about the Man Box and he just goes into this amazing story about his own journey with it and how he saw that his hi his limitations of being a, it, it just as amazing of like how it affects his parenting.
And, you know, it just like pulls on your heartstrings. It's so hard because there's so many different components where, you know, when we hear the term toxic masculinity, I get where that comes from. And I, and I understand that we have to have those discussions, but it, it promotes the belief that masculinity is bad and it, it, it creates sort of this divide of, well, I don't want to even explore toxic masculinity and really what it means because you're basically saying like I'm
gonna have to be a woman or be less of a man if I, you know, like everything I am is toxic. So I don't really care for that phrase as much. What I, I try to go to is more about emotional wellness because I think that's a little bit more easy because I think we all need that. You know, for men that I see so often is they don't have a safe place at all to, to learn to talk about the process because they've never seen the example, you know, in, in the world, you know, I've seen so many situations where
you know, we could talk about couples as well of being able to be in a, you know, the relationship between a heterosexual couple specifically is on my mind of, you know, he's not showing any emotion, but then when he does show emotion and it's not the one that she wants. So then it's wrong again. So there's so many mixed messages where he finally, you know, can be vulnerable, but then he's told he's wrong.
So there's all these confusing messages for men that say, well, I want you to feel this but not that and then you shouldn't feel this, but then you should do that. So then they just stopped giving a shit and say I'm just gonna shut it all off.
Jenn Junod
And how, in that, you know, example of a heterosexual relationship, how do we as women not do that or support that or you know, send that many mixed emotions because I have a feeling I'm guilty of that too.
Patrick Monette
You have to give your partner the dignity of their reaction and, and stop internalizing their reactions. You have to give them the dignity to say you have the right to feel what you're feeling. And I love you enough to hold this space and that your emotions aren't a reflection on me. You know what I'm saying? Because I think so. I think there's a difference between you did something that angered me to, I'm angry because of this.
There, it's two different situations. And I think if we've ever been wounded and I can speak from experiences where that insecurity comes in. If you're angry, that means you're gonna leave me. If you're upset with me, if you're, you're gonna leave me, you're gonna abandon me. But then what am I doing? I'm holding someone captive with my own demons. I have to heal those wounds. Yeah, I have to heal those wounds. And that's, that's not like a one and done.
It's an ongoing conversation when, when I'm working with couples, whatever the situation is, you know, they'll, most of the time they'll come and say, well, we don't communicate. Well, your communication might be off but you do communicate. It's really about the emotional connection, which kind of stems back into what we've been talking about is our own relationship with our emotions.
Jenn Junod
And how do we start building that? Sorry, there was a scratch at my door and I think my dog is outside my door and I was like, what is that? sorry, that scared me a bit. what is, what is, oh, that, that it goes so deep and I, where is the space or how do we start the conversation of the resources to Yes, II, 100% am such an advocate for therapy? Like I'm gonna be starting the reprocessing process for E MD R which is, oh, I'm excited for you. Is it OK.
Patrick Monette, Jenn Junod
Eye movement deci desensitization, desensitization and reprocessing therapy.
Jenn Junod
OK. We, I always forget the r So I'm really excited for it. My therapist and I, my therapist and I, and I'm really grateful she did this has because the book, you know, your body keeps the score really talks about it. And that book also goes into, you know, different types of therapy, which I really appreciate one thing that I really appreciate from my therapist because that book said, hey, you don't actually need your therapist never needs to know what's going on beforehand to talk
you through how to do it. And my therapist did take the time to get to know me to go through all of my trauma because she's like, I don't want us to miss something. I don't want us to, you know, for you to be like, oh, hey, six months down the road, hey, I forgot this, which can still happen because I know, from the research I've done and what she's told me is it can open up a lot of memories as well.
And it's really cool in the aspect of while I'm doing this podcast, like I need to work on my own story and I'm working with a storytelling coach and then my therapist is helping me change the, you know, trauma memory to just a memory which that all resurfaced for me last year on, when I had my brain surgery, I had a craniotomy that went through my right temple.
because I have an arachnoid cyst. So they had to build like a little tunnel in there to drain the Arachnoid cyst into my normal brain fluid. What, what? There's not a lot of studies on and no one really warned me because it's not like a known thing is if surgery on that side of the brain can actually re trigger all of long term memories because that's where your long term memories are stored in your brain itself.
And so that all resurfaced in November 2020 that's really helped me go. Ok, I really need to deal with that all of what I'm leading out to and saying is yes, therapy is, is magical and such a huge resource yet I know for myself, not all therapies work for everyone. Not all therapists are created equal because I, I will say it's been easier to talk to you and connect to you than 20 therapists that I've been to because they were all kind of like dick bags.
Like I don't know what else to say. Like, that's kind of a mean thing to say. Like they were females too. I do want to shout that out. You know, say that, but they, they would just throw resources at me. They don't really listen to me. They wanted to they wouldn't call me out if I didn't show up. Like, and I would in something that I always dealt with is I could get to know my therapist more than they got to know me as a defense mechanism.
And how that leads to two questions. How do people get, find their type of therapy? And how do they realize that this is their therapist? Like somebody that creates that safe space, especially if they don't, they've never had that safe space before.
Patrick Monette
I'm, I'm gonna throw out something of maybe changing the word safe to secure life because so, so I'm a certified E MD R therapist. So I'm so excited you're in good hands. And because I absolutely love it because a lot of times people in my experience, they've been violated by someone who is supposed to be safe.
Jenn Junod
Oh, yes. Yes. 100%.
Patrick Monette
So, you're going to come into my office and I'm telling you. Oh, yeah, this is a safe place. It's like I could be triggering you or re traumatizing you and we don't even know it. Right. So, one of the things that I'm seeing in the, the trauma informed care profession is really transitioning a little bit more to the word secure is like, do you feel secure in this moment?
Do you feel like because some people may never really feel safe? Right? And the idea is you for, for me, I, I want someone who's going to be knowledgeable, who's gonna be respectful. I like humor. So I need to be able to swear with them and be crazy and be wild and, and get like, if I'm in therapy, I need someone who can keep up with me because my mind I have this hour, this is like, I need to let everything out but also give me tools and validation, but also challenge me because what I know is I,
I can get in my head that can be a great place, but it can also be an unhealthy place. So I need someone to help me slow down and say, Patrick, you're doing this again. Can we explore this behavior? Where does this come from? What is the belief here? What is the emotion. What is the wound here? Because if I'm not going into the wounds, I'm never going to heal them.
Jenn Junod
I'm, I'm, I'm inter like laughing. Not as like a because I love that. My therapist does that. And one thing that I said at the very beginning is I was like, I cannot know anything about you at all. Like I cannot know anything about you, which like is amazing, but it kind of sucks because she is has, she's younger, she has a bunch of tattoos and she cusses just as much as I do like she will, she's even been like Jen.
No, that's, that's not the direction we're going. That's, you know, that's fucked up or you know, I'm totally paraphrasing just to give an example. And the reason I'm laughing at that, what you just said though is I'm like, I'll tell her something and she's like, so how do you feel about that? Like, where, where's that coming from?
I'm like, fuck, I don't know. She'll, she'll keep asking those questions and it's amazing because then, and this is something that I love about therapy is I, the therapist will ask enough questions to get me to answer myself and find the answer within myself and it's annoying, but it's really good, right?
Patrick Monette
And you have to, you have to feel comfortable and you what I found is that it can change like sometimes you're with a clinician for a certain amount of time and sometimes the relationship change or you change and you need someone with a different approach. That's ok. It's, it's not always about starting over from scratch because you don't need to rehash your whole story because you're not the same person, right?
And finding someone who, who you feel comfortable with. And that might take a while, unfortunately. And just like you're saying is sometimes we need more than just therapy. We need, we need to build, someone said to me, once you need to build your own team and that might be a spiritual advisor, might be coaching. It might be numerous coaching. It's friends and family.
you know, all these different components because we deserve that. And when those needs aren't getting met, we kind of go back to what we started with today is then we go into deprivation, we go into survival mode, we go into protective, we become more raw and then what happens? We become more angry because we're more in survival mode when our needs aren't getting met.
Jenn Junod
Yeah, that mindset of scarcity versus abundance because that is another thing that, that I, I don't think I would have been able to go through a lot of the therapy or even start this podcast if it wasn't for Tyler because he has made our relationship so safe. And he has taught me that even if I get angry, even if I go anywhere, he's not gonna go anywhere and we're gonna talk this shit out even if I really don't want to because it's my, it's always been my go to of running.
I've always been a runner. I've moved like 30 times because I'd be like, fuck this place. I'm, I'm out and that's not healthy either. It was, you know, good for a while because it, it kept me safe physically, especially during my high school years. Like it, it needed to happen, but I don't need that anymore. And I find that now we talked about like finding the right therapist and those resources now therapy there are that there's resources out there that are not always paid for.
And also like I went through self development groups to actually give, that really helped me get to the point of being able to feel like I could go to therapy. What resources do you know of that are out there that you think help just getting started on the journey. If somebody doesn't feel like they're ready for therapy,
Patrick Monette
I would say listen to podcasts, watch youtube videos. There's so many great resources on social media. Now, if people don't like social media, it's hard because, you know, I think self help books sometimes can be a little tricky. But I mean, some people love reading, for example, I do a weekly free newsletter that people find helpful where every month we focus on a different aspect of life. And, you know, being able to connect to that. And that's, that's a free resource. There's
so many great free things out there that people can do. And it just, the idea is you want something that's gonna get you moving because when we're stuck, that's when the most damage is happening because nothing can grow, nothing can prosper. So what is something that's going to help me identify the depression, the anger, the trauma, the, the A DH D whatever it might be the, the addiction. What's going to help me move enough? So then I can say this is the direction I need to go in.
Jenn Junod
And thank you for that because I think one thing I really do want to mention and I learned this from the Matthew Hesse Retreat if you haven't like for our listeners and for you, if you haven't heard of Matthew Hesse, he's a dating coach and he's like on youtube Instagram all of that. And even if you're in a relationship, it's mostly made for women.
But even if you are any gender because it really teaches communication skills and finding your worth and how you project that. So I suggest it for everyone. What one thing that I really took away that explained so much of this hardship that I couldn't explain is when you start, when you make that decision to make that change, when you start to, you know, look into this content or you look into the you start therapy is there's this phrase that he said the teething period where as
you're changing as a person, you may get a lot of pushback from people that, you know, from your society, from your, you know, your, your group of people from people at work because you yourself are changing. So people a a lot of times are really hard, it's very hard for them to deal with change as well as, you know, if you're no longer being passive, you know, and being that doormat and you're creating those boundaries, that's hard for people to accept because it's, you
know, it's new for them and they may not be a good fit in your life anymore. And could you go, can you do you, are you picking up what I'm putting down? And could you go into that?
Patrick Monette
Because I, I kind of want to just say a couple of things too is, and I meant to say this earlier is, is when we're looking at going back to the for men, is anyone like change doesn't mean you stop being who you are. I think that's a big fear is if I start reading this, if I start exploring this, that I'm gonna stop being who I am. And it's not about not being who you are. It's about becoming the best healthiest version of who you are.
Jenn Junod
And adding to that, I didn't do that real quick. I, that is something that I think, I don't know if this helps with men. I, so, you know, let me know, but we're not who we are a year ago. Like, we've changed, we've had experiences. So, it's also just part of the evolution. So, if you're like, ah, I think I'm my best self right now. Yeah, you prob, you might be yet. It's an evolution. We all evolve as we grow older.
Patrick Monette
Right? And it doesn't, we're not losing ourselves by growing. I mean, because I use the example, it's like when you're, you know, you're an adult, would you wear the same clothing you would wear when you were in first grade?
Patrick Monette, Jenn Junod
No, because it doesn't fit, but I might wear the same style just straight up. I was super colorful back then and now I have, I have no doubt.
Jenn Junod
And now I have gold overalls like I wish I had those when I was in first grade just straight up. But that's, that's a little different and a totally different story.
Patrick Monette, Jenn Junod
Then we focus back to fy, I everyone I am super A DH D and even with medication, it shines through, right?
Patrick Monette
But in the sense of because you've grown from when you were in the first grade, it doesn't fit anymore, but you don't judge yourself for that. I and that I think is one of the biggest fears that if I change, am I gonna lose the people I love? And then I don't have an answer for that because I, everyone has to experience that of, are you going to not live because of someone else? Are you gonna hold yourself back? Are you gonna live yourself unfulfilled and unhappy? Why that other person
isn't making those same sacrifices? Because those aren't sacrifices we're supposed to make, we're not supposed to not live for someone else. But when we, when we're missing that confidence and that self love and that self assurance, those doubts can be mighty loud. And that I, I remember from the, the musical, I don't know if you've seen it wicked. There's this one song in defying gravity and where she's saying I might be flying solo, but at least I'll be flying free.
Jenn Junod
I haven't seen it, but that's our fault.
Patrick Monette
It's, it's like the idea that like, I might be flying, I might be alone in this, but at least I'll be free. And to me that's always been my anthem. But the thing is the tricky thing is, you know, the people who need to be with us are going to find us. We're gonna, it's not about being alone.
It's like when we're in scarcity and we're constantly in fear of losing people. We are more alone than ever before. But when we actually learn how to love ourselves and learn how to have healthy relationships, that fulfillment is only going to help us grow.
Jenn Junod
100%. And I think that's also something I that I really wanna pinpoint on is to your point. It, how, how is it said it's I may be flying solo but I, I'm flying free it. That, that is really powerful because once you can find yourself, which is a very hard journey. Everybody, like people say, oh I'm finding myself, that shit sucks. But it's so worth it.
Like it is really hard and so worth it. So I don't wanna like pretend like this is like the easiest journey ever. It's the type of thing that as you're saying, like when we go from that scarcity mindset to just even just being on the journey, our energy changes our like what we put out in the world changes. So we attract people that are going to build us up. So we may be, we don't necessarily need to be alone to be free.
I feel the freest that I ever have in the last like year oddly since brain surgery because it made me deal with shit. Then I have my entire life and I am have more people supporting me. But it took so much time for me to get to this point and also realize I have more people cheering me on than I ever thought I did because I always struggled with the fact that I didn't feel that I was worthy.
Patrick Monette, Jenn Junod
So working on that, I found a lot more support than I ever thought I had and then also, you know, piggybacking off of that, of all of the people you touch by doing this podcast.
Jenn Junod
I'm so excited about it though because that is 11 of the biggest things that I'm struggling with is like, how to talk about like the Patreon or sponsors or like sharing and that kind of stuff because I don't want it to feel salesy. And the only reason I'm doing like the Patreon and stuff is to do, you know what Patreon is? Ok. So Patreon is where like people can do like a monthly payment.
Like, I think the low tier one is like $2.02 dollars a month to like, I think the highest me and the team set up is like $25 a month and like getting that funded because it goes into, I really feel like this podcast is seriously gonna help people at least get them started on their journey and make that. and my hope is that they, they find an episode or someone that they can really relate to that makes them no longer feel alone because that is I've always fit in more with the outsiders than
the popular crew. Yeah, I know as an outsider, it's not, you don't always fit in and I wish I realized that I never wanted to fit in back then. I feel like I would have, you know, that would have helped. So this Patreon is here because I really need to work on marketing or eventually, you know, work with the social media person because I'm best on like, you know, interviewing people and having this conversation.
I'm not best at video editing or, you know, social media or social media ads or in all of that part. So like a Patreon is set up to be able to help fund those type of things. So eventually, my goal is to make this self funding where I this is a passion project for me, but I'm spending so much money to do it. I'm just like, maybe this Patreon will at least help me like, you know, have it pay for itself and that's the biggest goal.
But how, what is just like on that note, what is something that, you know, as we start to go to end the episode today? What is something like, words of encouragement that you wish you told yourself back then or you would want our listeners to know to, you know, encourage them in their life.
Patrick Monette
One thing I would say is asking yourself along the way is what would I do if I had no fear? No. And that will bring some clarity into where you're making your decisions, where you're not what and what you're getting stuck on. And I don't know, like, never stop fighting whether it's for yourself or for someone else of, you know, how can I take what's going on in my life to pay it forward, to help someone else. And I think when we're in pain, when we're struggling, we can become really, I can
become really selfish and I can become self abed. But when I, when I think of how can this pain or this struggle possibly help me help someone else in the future, it breaks me out of that selfishness and it helps me heal faster than I could have before. So being able to see if fear is holding me back. And also how is this gonna help me grow as a person?
Jenn Junod
100% and adding to that real quick is journaling. I think it's a really good way of thinking through those items. I know for myself, I, I think this is about, you know, being a millennial but my hand gets tired writing so sometimes I type it but it doesn't really have the same impact yet being able to reflect back on something really, really has helped me when I'm putting my thoughts to paper or the computer because then I can reflect back on how I was feeling, back on how I was feeling.
Patrick Monette
Yeah. And that's what I started when I did my, when I started my, it was almost a year ago like January or February, where I started the consistent weekly free newsletter that I do where I was choosing topics that were coming up in my life. And I just happened to share my experiences and I would just write them down or something like that. And then people could relate to him and then being able to ask, share the questions that I ask myself when I'm getting stuck or when I'm growing or when
I'm experiencing abundance or joy, you know, like it's, it's not all the heavy stuff. It's the sweetness too of being able to, we have to look at it in balance. It's like a good chocolate chip cookie recipe. You add a little salt so you can enjoy the sweetness even better.
Jenn Junod
That is so true. And now how do people reach out to you or follow you or if you aren't a social media guy? Like, what is there any call to action that you would give our audience?
Patrick Monette
Sure. So my website Patrick minute.com is sort of like the main platform of where that is. it's where all my social media is so you can find it. I'm on all this. So like I do a lot of Instagram and Facebook. I do a biweekly video show podcast called Friday Night Feels and that's on youtube as well. So you can just go to Patrick manette.com and connect with me and send me an email or follow me on social media and connect with me that way.
Jenn Junod
Yay. And last thing Patrick, what are you grateful for?
Patrick Monette
I'm grateful for this conversation because it really actually helped me, you know, see where I've grown, where I'd like to grow. But also talking about some beautiful parts of my life and getting to know you in a really beautiful way has been amazing. So I'm really grateful for our conversation today and getting to know you.
Jenn Junod
Well, thank you for that and ditto for my grateful. But I also want to share something different. So that way, I'm not just copying you, I would say because it's true and I, I'm, I am grateful for the fact that we were able to talk about types of therapy, how to deal with your, like, how to find your therapist, men's mental health. And so much of this conversation.
Yeah. One thing I really, really wanna point out because gratitude can start and this is something, the reason I bring it up is it really helped me go from scarcity to abundance. I mean, it took years. So I'm not, I don't want to like, you know, fool anybody that it's like, oh, I'm gonna do this for a week and all of a sudden if things are gonna be better.
So for something as little as I'm grateful for my cup of macha or, I mean, that is something I'm grateful for because I'm not a morning person and I'm or something that I know that is really helpful is even something like I'm grateful for. If somebody let me in, in traffic because there's so many little things that we can be grateful for that. I think so many of us don't think about.
So thank you Patrick and we will talk soon. Hey, thank you for listening to Sh!t You Don’t Want to Talk About and being a part of the change from Sh!t You Don’t Want to Talk About to Shit2TalkAbout that being said, make sure to subscribe, like share on all of our social medias. It is shit. The number two talk about we're on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, tiktok.
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