S1 E7 Shit2TalkAbout Eating Disorders with Rachel Shumway
Transcript was AI generated, if there are mistakes, please let me know! Thank you in advance! Jenn Junod
Thank you for joining. Shit. You don't want to talk about as it says in the title. This is Sh!t You Don’t Want to Talk About this can have explicit content. We do cuss and we don't censor and it could be content that's not suitable for kids under the age of 13. That being said, kiddos, please ask your parents to listen. If you want to listen to one of these episodes.
Parents, please use your best judgment if you are gonna allow your kids to listen to this. This is content that I wish I knew when I was a kid yet. It does involve explicit content and there are trigger warnings for both kiddos and adults read the description to read what it's about because there are way too many topics that we talk about that could be trigger warnings for any of us. We do wish you the best and we really want to have this podcast out there to change shit. You don't want to
talk about to Shit2TalkAbout. So we all have help and no longer feel alone. Much love. Enjoy the episode. Thank you Rachel for joining shit. You don't want to talk about? What shit do you want to talk about that? Others don't want to talk about bulimia. Oh, wow. Yeah, I haven't talked about that one yet and, you know, before we dive deep, you know, before we dive deep into the deep end, tell us a bit about yourself and how that ended up being our topic of choice today.
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. So I've gone through AAA lot of different things in my life like divorce, relocation, eating disorder, things like that. And I think, you know, just divorce is a little bit more commonly talked about. You can for sure find a lot of resources out there. People that have talked about their stories, written books, that sort of thing. And so I felt like there's a lot of support for people out there and has even become something in our culture that is celebrated to some extent,
which is so exciting that we have that option to leave relationships and complete them when they are no longer serving us. But when I was really, really, really in the deep end of my eating disorder, I had such a hard time finding people that had gone through it and really recovered from it, like the forum boards or whatever were actually very destructive.
Like you go on to the, the Reddit if you will of eating disorder support and it was more like support for techniques to how to teach yourself, like how to purge better or more effectively or things like that. So that wasn't really supportive. And then finding mentors or coaches that truly had like gone through it and are able to see and coach and guide, not from a place of just like telling you what to do, like, yeah, we'll just stop throwing up, which is not useful.
It's like, I know that, but how kind of thing was really, really difficult. So I hope that in sharing my story and providing some of the things that helped for me, some resources as well that helped, you know, people can have a greater awareness of what eating disorders are, like, how they normally how people normally get into them and what it's like to really be in it and then eventually, you know, make your way through recovery and, you know, be in the process and learn how to accept
and love yourself no matter what stage of recovery you're at like the very, very beginning where like you're still deep in behaviors or all the way at the end when it's been like, you know, a year or two and kind of every step in between.
Jenn Junod
And thank you for that. And I'm, it's weird to say on each of these episodes, like I'm looking forward to talking about it because like, honestly, this shit is hard and something that you taught me during our intro call is that vulnerability hangover. And that is something I never really thought of until we spoke. And I was like, I, I felt it in a lot of the conversations that we've been having so far and having to learn like my own self care and how I'll admit, I think I've rescheduled
this episode four times and a lot of that is learning my own self care and that there are days that I feel like shit and I'm battling, you know, with my own demons and that's an ongoing life thing. And today I still don't feel great, but I, I was, I've been so excited to talk to you about everything in the fact that you taught me so much in our short intro call that I'm like, I want to talk to this chick like she is bad
ass and I appreciate that before we go into the past. Let's touch base on the present. What are you up to nowadays like for work or your family or what is, what are you up to now?
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. So I just moved back to the U SI was living in China for three years before that. So I'm living with my family right now and it, it's really nice to be close to them and be cozy and all of that. I am a life coach, so I'm working on my life coach business. And what I do with people there is help them through some of the weight loss journey sometimes and you know, working through eating disorder prevention or sometimes recovery.
I also work a lot with clients just on their general mental health and their emotional intelligence, their mo emotional resilience and literacy so that they can kind of take that skill and apply it to their businesses, their relationships and their life. It's called the Badass Academy. So it's kind of combining big achievements also with authenticity and vulnerability and really good nervous system management.
Jenn Junod
That is, and thank you for sharing that because I love the fact that you have the Badass Academy. And it's funny because I, I use the term bad ass all the time. So when you applied to be on the podcast and I saw the Badass Academy, I was like Rachel and I have to talk, I'm so excited about this. So in pure curiosity, what were you doing in China?
Rachel Shumway
I originally went there just after a divorce because I wanted a fresh start and just to kind of start completely over. And then my original plan was to stay there for a year after I'd kind of reset and everything. And then I ended up really liking it over in Shanghai, like the lifestyle and it's very convenient.
Very I was teaching English and doing some Engl curriculum development for some companies working with kindergartens. And then also, you know, building my business up over there and I, I just love it so much like China is the place that I became an adult and I would say it's for sure.
Jenn Junod, Rachel Shumway
My second home, that is very cool.
Jenn Junod
And it's interesting to me on and we'll, we'll get feedback from the listeners. there's so many guests that we've had so far that have talked about that they've traveled or lived in other countries. And I find that really cool. Yet, I'm curious when the listeners give feedback. If y'all like hearing about all the travel or if you're like, Jen, please just skip over it. Like, we don't care as much as you do about it.
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. And, and keeping it relevant for the listeners, but also like, it's so eye opening to see things from that other perspective. I think there's always something to gain from different lenses of culture and living.
Jenn Junod
Exactly. And I, I find it really cool that my full time job because I do the podcast as part time. My full time job, a part of that is curriculum development. So I might be hitting you up at some point being like, yo Rachel feedback, please.
Rachel Shumway
Yeah, totally. That's my jam.
Jenn Junod
Awesome. Let's, let's go into the deep shit. Not that anybody really enjoys that. It's, but that's why we have this podcast is to bring light to those topics and really dig in deep and to get through them because this is, it's, it's fun and not fun. You know, it's, it's a release. I think that's a good way. Of saying.
Rachel Shumway
Yeah, it's, it's very comforting to hear stories of triumph and overcoming and helps you feel like you're not alone in all the shit that you're going through.
Jenn Junod
Right? All right. So, how old were you when you first had an eating disorder?
Rachel Shumway
I was probably so I had been since middle school really more into the emotional eating, the disordered eating and started experimenting with dieting when I met my ex-husband. my f my second semester of university at that point in time, it was really just like working on controlling my food intake a little bit more. It wasn't so like crazy or restrictive.
And then after we got married, we actually moved to China right away about three weeks into that. So I would say when I was 19 is really when the binge eating disorder started to develop and it was, it was from there like probably for about seven years and the bulimia surface probably five years into that.
Jenn Junod
Wow. And what you said you kind of started in middle school, what led up to it to, was it something that you did instinctively or was it something that life around you kinda caused you to develop that or influence somewhere?
Rachel Shumway
Yeah, it was definitely a learned behavior. Something that has run back from generation. I don't know how many generations of the women in my family. And II, I also do see it in, in my uncles. sometimes as well. But certainly it was a learned behavior. Like growing up, it would be like my mom would say the kitchen is closed after dinner. You can't eat anything after that.
And that was, I think her way of trying to help herself, you know, not eat after dinner and not eat emotionally. But then, you know, we would kind of see sneaking food. There was always like, and this is so normal with so many families, right? It's like you sit down, you watch a movie, there has to be a snack, you sit down and you're playing games, there has to be a snack.
So it's like food becomes a boredom thing. Food becomes something that you do in order to, you know, avoid feeling bored or lonely or you're sad. And so I think, you know, most humans eat emotionally, it's a pretty normal thing. But when it becomes a problem is when it is compulsive and when it is always followed up by shame of, I can't believe I did that. I can't stop. Like, what am I doing? What's wrong with me that and you start to feel a little bit out of control.
So that's kind of where I would categorize it as more emotional eating and disordered eating and not quite like a full on eating disorder. It is kind of a sliding sp spectrum in gray area. But yeah, and up until I moved to China, there were some that I would binge, but I wasn't really restrictively dieting. So it wasn't like you swing one way, you swing really far the other way.
Jenn Junod
I was more in the middle and on, on that note of bringing up China and, and you said that it's more of a human aspect. Did you see that happen across cultures with other people when they talked about their family about if they in China, for example, binge ate or would snack eat or, you know, eating in general being part of the culture because it's for example, I know I've heard, I haven't been there to experience it yet.
But in Italy, for example, lunches could be, you know, a few hours to sit and enjoy the food and enjoy the conversation, enjoy where in the US. a lot of places is it's go, go, go or snack time is for movies or as you said with you know, game night. Did you see that in China?
Rachel Shumway
Yeah, I mean, food is a huge part of the culture. It's one of the main forms of recreation. There's so many different Chinese dishes. And so people really do like to go out, invite their friends out and enjoy sometimes long meals, often very, very extravagant. I would say the problem is more food waste on that end of, you know, the more food you order, the more prosperous, the more rich, the more it's like a gesture of love in a way of providing a lot of dishes.
So, I mean, from an eating disorder perspective, those were always very stressful because you've got a huge table of food laid out for you. And people will always say, like, eat more, eat more, make sure you try some of this like and it's super well intentioned, of course, that they just want you to try everything they wanna, they wanna give love.
That's how they show it versus, you know, in the US, you would never like, we don't really tell other people like eat more, eat more, eat more. It's just like we kind of stay in our own business with that. I didn't see a lot of binge eating although I know that anorexia is very much prominent in China. It was more of, yeah, just social eating. And in public people would actually not eat as much because they didn't want to be seen as gluttonous.
So it's kind of this paradoxical thing of like everyone saying eat more, eat more, eat more. And then, you know, with the women, at least with the men they do whatever they want. But with the women, it's like, oh no, I'm full to, to keep that, I guess, face that perspective, that persona of someone that is in control of their food. And then you know what ends up happening is people are starving like they're so hungry.
I would see this at lunches all the time with coworkers they would like, oh, look at that cute little salad you have. Oh, you're so good. That kind of thing. And then of course, because they're not feeding themselves any nutrients. By the afternoon they order in a bunch of milk tea, a bunch of snacks and then it's a social bonding thing.
Jenn Junod
I, I total side note love milk tea and boba. That's just something that I wish more people loved. But you mentioned it. So I'm like, oh that does sound good going back to your family and thank you for sharing about your experience in China. But what it, it does sound like your experience was a bit different in the fact that my family was always finish everything on your plate.
And for me, I'm an only child, but when I would go to my grandparents' house, they would be like, well, Jen, you need to finish all the food and it would be that very different. paradox in the fact that I weighed close to £250 at my heaviest. And they would always tell me how big I was and how they would definitely shame me for my weight and yet they would tell me to finish all my food. So it definitely did cause a lot of that shame in, in me, how was it when you mentioned that your family would
sneak food and like your mom would shut down the kitchen. How did that start developing for you in middle school? And when you did you realize, is it more of like a hindsight? 2020 where you're like, oh, now I really understand what was going on or, and when you were developing in, in middle school, how, how did you kind of like, figure your way through that? And how did that feel?
Rachel Shumway
Yeah, it's definitely like a hindsight. 2020 thing going back and recognizing and, and I mean, even being away from home for so long and then coming back to it and seeing the patterns that come up, like somebody will say someone else should finish that pie. Otherwise I'm gonna do it like this sense of like, feeling totally out of control. Like, if there's a dessert, I have no choice but to eat it.
And so of course, I heard those things growing up and eventually, like, internalized them. I really didn't realize what was going on. I did notice like one summer that, you know, I would stay home and watch TV and like, eat a bunch of like chips and cheese. That was like my stack. And then I would notice like, oh, I feel totally terrible. Why do I keep doing this?
And then I would go back and do it the same day and I would just tell myself, yeah, it's good. Like, what's the problem? And I think on some level, like eating food that tastes good, it genuinely is not a problem. Like I said, like, it's when your health starts to become an issue and when you can't stop. And I think when that really did start to develop for me was when I, I did start to shame my body a little bit because I gained weight, obviously, like I was just watching TV and eating nachos,
that's, that's gonna happen. But then I was like, like I feel gross. Like II I and I can't stop. And then at some point in time, my mom did say like, I'm afraid that she has seeds to an eating disorder or her words. And I, and I was like, what does that even mean? Like stupid. And so I guess at that time I did start to associate myself with somebody that did have problems with eating and noticing and having those sneaking behaviors kind of ingrained.
I did notice myself like feeling like I wanted to sneak food and like, instead of just eating it in public at the table, like I would just kind of like, you know, make a plate and then hope that nobody saw it when I was in the living room and then take it up to my room and maybe they did see it, maybe they didn't, but I felt like I was hiding something which is where that, like that shame spi spiral begins.
...
Jenn Junod
Oh, sorry. Yeah, that's, you know, technology. my mic will hit pick up even if I like put my teacup down. So I keep trying to mute myself and I didn't realize that, OK, you know, same, same issues with Zoom. But how did that progress? Because you said that that was ad what, how was that continuing until you were 19? Like what, what was that progression like?
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. So the biggest thing was that previously in middle school, I was using that as a way to cope with boredom, to cope with loneliness, to cope with sadness and frustration though I didn't realize that at the time. And then moving into university, it actually wasn't really that big of a deal. I I lost a considerable amount of weight in university just because I was more aware of my food and I wasn't around those behaviors as much.
But when I moved to China, it was a very intensely stressful period. And the depression that I, you know, I kind of had for my whole life got really, really, really, really bad with kind of a borderline narcissistic abusive relationship, but mainly also it was intense isolation and feeling trapped. Like I'm in this tiny town in China with a man that doesn't know how to support me with this depression.
I don't have any support. My family is far away from home. Like I can't even access Facebook without a VPN. So it led to this feeling of intense isolation and truly, I remember like my first binge was that I do believe that it was i an impulsive way of just being like, I have to do something like my husband would leave the house, ex husband. And then it was just like, I ha like, like, I feel so trapped.
I don't know what to do. And then, like, something kind of took over me, which was, you know, kind of those patterns that had been built up in middle school. So my first binge, I clearly remember my husband left the house and then I just like saw myself walking to a cabinet and I was like, I'm so pissed off at him right now. I'm gonna eat all of the special candy that we bought from the US that I know we can't buy here.
So it was like in my brain, the logic was like, I'm punishing him. And then at the same time, feeling so trapped and out of control that I wasn't able to access that part of me that was like, we really don't want to be doing this. Like this actually feels like crap. And then from that point, I think it kind of unlocked an addiction truly that I do believe was, was wired into my brain at some point since this has been a pattern for generations and generations.
I think there was some sort of wiring in my brain for this particular addiction that I had to work through and work on rewiring. But at that time it was like the genetic code unlocked and, and it was full throttle from there.
Jenn Junod
Oh, wow. And to re, to make sure I understand, was it a bit of, yes, it was punishing him for eating the food like you wanted to take it away from him. But, and I don't want this to be projecting because of my own experiences. But was it also a way of control just of a you could do it? So you're gonna do this to punish him but to be able to control the situation.
Rachel Shumway
I don't, I don't think that's quite what it was for me. I know a lot of people you know, clients and friends that I've talked to have had that sense of like I have to control something for me. It was more just the total opposite like I wanted to punish him. And then as I did that more and more and more, I started to believe that I wanted to punish myself and I started to build this identity of someone that hates herself and punishes herself by food.
Yet at the same time, comforts herself by using food. And so that's the cycle you eat because you think you hate yourself, you beat yourself up because what kind of person does that is like the story and the narrative. And so then you feel terrible, you feel ashamed and then you eat to comfort yourself and then you get angry again and then you're like, I hate myself. So it goes around and around.
Jenn Junod
Wow. Did, have you spoken to, you said that it is generational and that a lot of the women and some of the men in your family have dealt with this.
Jenn Junod, Rachel Shumway
Have you talked to your family about this?
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. My mom and I have had a lot of conversations about it and kind of as I've gone through this journey as well of recovery and healing. I've been able to support her as well though. You know, it is a little different between me and her. But having me share the patterns of what I grew up with and the stories that I observed and the behaviors that I observed and like how it affected me has also given her a chance to reflect on.
Ok, what am I doing? What's working, what's not working and, you know, I kind of coached her through a couple of things. So we do fortunately have a really close relationship that we're able to talk about things when I felt like it was necessary and vice versa for her.
Jenn Junod
Is, is before diving more into that piece of it. I am curious about everything. Ok.
Rachel Shumway
I can't see you anymore though.
Jenn Junod
It'll, it'll do that on, it'll, it may make me really blurry and then it will cut out the video, it'll still upload. It just makes it so that way, what happens is it's trying to save bandwidth. Got it. So, because I'm still working as a total side down, I'm still working on finding a new software because there's times with some people that I've recorded where my audio shows up on their audio track and even if they're wearing headphones or it's like a very weird.
So I do need to find a new software or I'm trying to use my airpods this time to see if it was maybe my mic causing it somehow. So, but let me go back and think about my question,
Rachel Shumway
I was talking about sharing things with my mom and how we support each other,
Jenn Junod
talking about your mom and being able to also help her on her journey because you, as you were healing, she's working through her own journey. What was that point that that made you break the cycle for yourself or realize that there was an issue to begin with? Hm.
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. So I noticed that there was an issue to begin with for sure in China, but I just, I felt so out of control and didn't have the resources available for me to know that what was going on at that point was truly just a neurological brain habit, going and going and going and the addiction slash eating disorder literature at the time was slightly victim is victimizing whatever that word is of, you know, if you have alcohol or if you have drug addiction, like it's not fair, you can just
cut that completely. But with food, it's just something that you have to like live with for the rest of your life. And it wasn't really an empowering perspective to me. So during China, it was, it was really, really tough. And then when I went, when we moved back, I, we were going to university and there was a support group for just general eating disorders.
And so I started to go there and we started digging into like the inner, the inner child and the mask that you put on for the world and a very traditional therapeutic route, which looks like, you know, what happened as a child that made you want to comfort yourself. Like what is the deep root psychological cause of this eating disorder? And that wasn't really useful for me because I think a lot of times maybe it started as a psychological thing, but it's not like you just identify that
and then unlock it. Your brain has a habit loop of binge, restrict shame and guilt. Like that is the, the neurological and emotional cocktail that your brain starts to create because the brain's job is to automate patterns. So that's what it did. So honestly, like navigating all the way through university, which is where the bulimia kind of started to pop up as I was, you know, studying exercise and wellness.
That was my major and nutrition and stress management. And a lot of the tools that I learned there were very, very helpful in helping me to take care of my body. But then during the times that it wasn't so well, it was like, I can't do this too much pressure, which is when, you know, kind of the purging would come up, especially when I started trying to control my weight a little bit more and dieting because I was around like a lot of bodybuilders and very professional athletes in my
major. So it started with a little bit more body dysmorphia as well. So kind of during that time of university, what I used to cope was the support groups and over exercising. So I started using that as a compensatory behavior as well. Things that I was doing that were helpful during that time, I did, I did journal a lot and I did do therapy and those were, those were helpful and kind of starting to help me to see that shame was not a useful emotion.
Like I had that awareness of the way that I'm gonna break this cycle is by learning how to step out of shame. First and foremost, I didn't really develop that capability though until I moved to China and COVID hit actually, which was ironically like the time that the bulimia got the most intense and I also had the most support at the same time.
So it was like kind of this really weird paradox of like the, the tools that I was using had me more focused on the neurological patterns of, you know, why am I behaving this way? What are the habits? What are the thought, like, think feel do cycles is, is kind of how I came to understand it and how I teach it of like, what am I thinking? What is the biological response?
How does that make me react and kind of learning myself? And I think that subconsciously, I noticed that and like something in my brain was like, OK, well, if you go deeper into this, you're gonna be able to more comprehensively understand that, which is not true. It's not a useful thought, but that's what ended up happening is that I went deeper into the recovery and there was also a lot of stress re response from COVID as well, which I can talk more about like the nervous system
integration of the eating disorder in a second. But to answer your question, that's really when I found coaching, like I found coaching a couple, a couple months really before COVID broke out in terms of like the eating disorder coaching. And then when COVID hit and I had more of like a nervous system freak out cause like I was living in China at the time, that's when the symptoms really started popping up. And I was like, shit, I need a lot of support. I am going to figure this out.
I'm going to find the person that can guide me through it. And so that's when I really started putting full force, full energy into recovering. And when started things started to pick up and I knew that I was moving towards holistic recovery that was going to last and not be like this nitty gritty like alcoholics, anonymous vibe victim circumstance for recovery from this eating disorder, which is truly what I wanted was just to be like free, you know.
Jenn Junod
Yeah. And to also because you were in China and I just wanna align time timelines properly. When did COVID hit in your area when things started shutting down?
Rachel Shumway
I mean, things shut down across the country basically at the same time. So end of February was when I think it began. And then at that point in time, the government was like, ok, you cannot leave your city. Everybody needs to return to their hometown. You know, Wuhan was barricaded like nobody can leave essential personnel like consulate officers and their families were sent on charter flights home because that's like just a safety issue from, from the government standpoint.
But yeah, it was like, I wasn't allowed to leave Shanghai. There were some communities in Shanghai that like when you would go out to buy groceries, the security guards would give you a ticket and then you would have to give them back the ticket when you entered, like no visitors from the outside, very, very strict mask enforcement. And, yeah, like they cracked down really, really quickly and the system I think is just absolutely genius, the way that they were able to do it and
people followed along and, you know, maybe there was a lot of fear involved from their standpoint, which is why they stayed in their home. But hey, like it, they've done an excellent job in controlling everything. And like I said, like, I love China and having been there through COVID, it's just like, how incredible and how safe I felt at the same time, like, kind of
paradoxically like COVID'S breaking out. But like, there was just this sense of everybody is doing this together. We're all on the same team, we're all following the protocols.
Jenn Junod, Rachel Shumway
And so like, we're gonna get through this very cool and, and thank you for sharing that just to make sure that we were all in the same timelines.
Jenn Junod
I wasn't sure if it, it happened in your area any sooner since, you know, the States didn't really shut down until about March or late March. And then another question that I, I was very curious about was you mentioned that you started putting more pressure on yourself because of that you, the courses you were taking in university also had a lot of bodybuilders and professional athletes.
Was that something that, and, and also in your work that you see people that go from their, possibly their eating disorders and then that lead them into over exercising as a different coping mechanism.
Rachel Shumway
Totally, like using exercise as a way to control weight. And the number one cause of like binge eating in Bolivia and obviously like anorexia, but is restriction, overly restricting the amount of energy that your body needs so that you're at like an energy deficit that can be through exercise, that can be through dietary restriction. Either way but obviously like overexercising is gonna be a more socially acceptable way to control your weight.
So for sure, like when I would go to the gym, I would sense this very, I don't know how to describe it just very tense and very self-conscious vibe that was masked by a pride in your body and vanity. But really what was underneath that was this fear and this restriction of I'm not enough. I don't look good enough and I really, really, really have to control my weight so that I can feel comfortable in my body.
Jenn Junod
Wow. Would you say that that's a difference of confidence first versus worth and where people could exude confidence, especially showing their body and pushing their body whereas, but their own internal worth to what you were saying of I'm not worthy or anything like that could have that there, there's a, a difference in the two where a lot of people correlate the two together as the same.
Rachel Shumway
Absolutely. And I think the difference kind of in what you're describing is like, like picture an upside down triangle. This is how I'm visualizing it. Like worth is at the bottom. Like that's really the foundation and then when there is authentic Worth and like that, that cup is filled if you will and you believe in your worthiness, no matter what, just because you're like a human and whatever, like you're born with it, it can go in the direction of when you have that worth having
true self-confidence, which feels very grounding, which feels like no matter what happens, I'm gonna have my back, which feels like if I gain £5 it's not a big deal because like, I can lose it again or maybe I won't, but it doesn't matter because I will love myself no matter what versus this sense of false confidence.
Kind of like an air of arrogance if you will as a way to cover up and try to fill a cup of worthiness that feels empty. It's more of a prideful feeling. But on the outside, it can appear like confidence.
Jenn Junod
I really like the way you describe that and that really hit home, especially in the fact of how you talk about the anorexia and you know, and bulimia and restricting your intake. I myself never had, never went through the restriction aspect of it. I did definitely go through the overeating aspect of it and never thought that I would ever lose the weight and that I would never be worthy enough because of my weight.
And never, and, and, and I honestly, I do wanna be open about this. Is that something that I, I know that I'm worthy? And I do feel worthy now, but there are days that I struggle with that, that I, that I go into really dark places. And it's interesting to me that as you're sharing your story from a different aspect of, of body image and the body dysmorphia that so many of us have is it's really triggering
emotions in me that I wasn't expecting in the fact of even though I was coming from a different, totally different ballpark, you know, it still, it still really hits home.
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. Yeah, totally because body image is a trigger for so many people not like the trigger in the sense that low body image causes overeating or restriction. It doesn't, but it does often bring up feelings of shame when you feel towards your body that like, I don't look good enough that causes the shame.
And that is one of like the biggest emotions that leads to the overeating. So like separating the two is like just because you have body dysmorphia doesn't mean that you're doomed. You have an eating disorder, but they do tend to go together. Yeah, for sure.
Jenn Junod
And, and the other thing that this is definitely making me think of is the fact that right now I'm personally going through a lot of like my own health journey and the fact of like figuring out what's going on. and getting really frustrated at my body and I have quite a few friends that have you know, on chronic illnesses that they deal with that as a not necessarily their body image but angry at what their body is doing to them and feeling like it's turning against them.
And yes, we're specifically talking about bulimia today yet. It's surprising to me how much of this is the same type of conversation that keeps coming up in many of these different types of, of conversations. How does when you started going through especially during COVID and I'm glad to hear that China was where you were in China was very thorough with preventing more cases.
What was you said that you had a lot of support, but yet you were also one of the hottest times that you were struggling with it as well. How did you start getting through that? And you, you mentioned that you were gonna working on finding the coach and then becoming the coach yourself. What was that journey like?
Rachel Shumway
Yeah, so starting at the beginning of when it really did start to get worse, I found an overeating coach because like I wanted to lose weight at that time. That taught a method of, of building a way of eating where you plan your food ahead of time and then you stick to it. And so for many, many people, that's a doable thing that you make a plan and then you stick with it and you, like, make little tweaks along the way.
But the way that you're planning your food isn't uber restrictive. I didn't have that awareness that most people that don't have a severely disordered relationship with food probably aren't gonna be planning like 1200 calories a day on top of a very active lifestyle. So I made this protocol where I would fast for 16 hours and then eat two meals a day.
And I mean, I was starving my body. It did not have enough energy for, you know, the amount of energy that my body needed. And so the reason why it did get so much worse was because I was restricting myself so much that that's really when the fight or flight survival response in my body started to get triggered. Now, concurrently, one of the things that the coach taught that I absolutely like love and stand by is that when you make your plan and you want to, you know, eat something that
you didn't plan, then the reason why that is, is because you're having an urge or some people will call it a craving. And the way that most people fight, the craving is by like fighting it and muscling through it and just like kind of kind of energy. But what she taught is like, you just have to feel that energy in your body. It's just like any other emotion you sit with it.
You notice yourself like the sensations in your body until it passes because it does pass if you separate yourself from it instead of like getting attached to it and fighting your way through. So what I learned how to do during that time, which by the way, I'm not suggesting that anybody do this, but how I interpreted that in my space is ok. All I need to do is like ride these urges out.
And so what I thought I was writing out were emotional urges, emotional cravings, normal things. But what I was actually doing was writing out a physiological fight or flight response, which in the experience of my body is about 50 times stronger than a normal craving. A normal craving feels like, oh I could eat that right now. A biological binge urge feels like you are going to die unless you eat something.
But I was like riding my way through that. Not really knowing that what I was experiencing was a biological reaction. So that's kind of to set the stage of the context of how I got through. It was that eventually I learned that I needed to feed my body more and that if you are in the thick of binging or bulimia. It's the same thing like the focus cannot be on weight loss because when you get to the point that you are binging once a week, twice a week, three times a week, your body is in
constant survival mode and you cannot lose weight when your cortisol levels are so high, like it just doesn't work because your body needs you to survive. So the first step was allowing myself to eat more, which I know for a lot of people that are trying to lose weight is like, are you kidding me? Like I'm so out of control of food. Like you're telling me to eat more, but it's like, no, it's totally the opposite because your body is trying to get more food that you need to intentionally
give that, give it to that so that your body is so that your nervous system can calm down. So I started to do that and I started to notice the biological urges or the survival instincts to kind of settle down. And once that settled down and I got myself, you know, eating more regularly, more energy, which you kind of build up over time when you're used to severe restriction, you kinda have to like add it in a little at a time, especially if bulimia is involved.
Your stomach, acid levels are so messed up. You're not used to having a normal quantity of food in your stomach, your hunger signals are way out of whack like it, it takes some time. It is a process. But once I got to that space of, you know, my body is more calmed down, the, the, the purging had stopped or, you know, decreased enough that like my body wasn't in this constant fight or flight, then I could sort of go back to like working on the emotional eating part of it, which is where it
all began. So it's kind of like, you know how they say like when you're a baby, you need to be taken care of, like you're crying all the time, like you're, you know, you need to be fed and then like through the adult life, you know, you're a little bit more like you can kind of take care of yourself and then as a baby or as an as an old person, it kind of goes back to that primitive state.
So like, it's not the perfect analogy, but it was kind of like emotional eating into the intensity of bulimia and binge eating back to the state of, of the beginning where it was more of just the emotional eating and learning how to OK, what is it that I need right now? Because I know that I don't need food. The way that I know I don't need food is my belly is not telling me my, my brain is telling me that I need food, but my body doesn't. So learning how to trust those sensations of hunger and
fullness. And if I do wanna eat when I'm not hungry, it's like, why, why do I want to eat? And you know, writing those cravings out using that skill of just allowing the urges to come and to go and to pass and then like, what do I really need? Do I need rest? Is, is meal time, the only time that I'm allowing myself to enjoy my life. So it probably means that I need to change a couple of things in my life to make it more enjoyable. So that's kind of the progression that I, I view it as very cool.
Jenn Junod
And some things that that really popped out on me is the fact that you have to learn to eat what your body needs and, and that's gonna take time and patience with yourself to really figure out what the differences are of what your brain means and what your stomach means. I, I am curious in the fact of you said that it does, especially for those that are bulimic that your stomach's not used to having that food, especially if you're binging a few times a week, what do you know?
And if not, maybe I can look it up afterwards of what happens to your body with the restrictions or with the big gene and or with overexercising, what are some of the damages, permanent damages are capable that people can do to their bodies by doing so.
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. So I mean, I believe and I'm not totally sure I could be wrong on it like the restriction side for long periods of time is for sure gonna affect your bone mass, your hair in the short term when you are restricting like your hair does start to fall out your skin. gets a little bit more wrinkly like you don't have those nutrients and those oils to help keep your skin hydrated.
Your nails get very weak, your energy gets low, your periods stop. And then with the binging, I would say long term effects, I'm not totally sure of permanent damages because the biggest thing is that your stomach just gets used to large quantities of food. But once you're no longer binging, your stomach goes back to like a normal size, you're more in touch with your hunger signal.
So you're not stretching it beyond like a quote unquote normal capacity, which it's different for everything. Everyone. It's one of those things that you just figure out. And then, you know, obviously once recovery happens as well, you don't have that urge to eat large quantities of food because you rewired your brain to the point that that binge urges aren't a thing anymore.
Now, those are different than cravings. So just kind of keeping that in mind as well with bulimia. If you are over exer exercising as a compensatory behavior, you're gonna have a lot of joint pain and I do sometimes still get knee pain because I would run and run and run and run in a way that wasn't natural for my body. Like I'm not a runner, that's not the way that I'm built.
and so there can be some permanent damage there. you also do become more injury prone, obviously, like if you're comp, compensating in that way. I do still to this day have sleep effects from that. When I do have a really stressful day, I notice it takes me a significantly longer amount of time to calm down just because my nervous system is still very more prone to going into that survival response.
It's just a little bit more sensitive and that's ok. It's, it's brain doing its job. So that's just a signal for me to, you know, slow down and be with myself. This isn't permanent, but giving a little bit more attention to that with the purging aspect, if it's like through vomiting, stomach acid ph is a huge thing. Damage to the esophagus, damage to your teeth, mouth sores are are common.
And I would say the biggest thing is for people that were bulimic and and no matter their phase of recovery is like digestion, heartburn is really common, difficulty digesting foods. Even, you know, a year later, I still can't eat beans. There are some foods that are just like my stomach can't process it. And so that's just something that heals with time and, you know, working with a nutritionist and getting the right supplements and, you know, digestive enzymes and drinking
lots of water and giving your body time to really rest and recover like that does take time. especially if like my, my intense bulimic bulimia period really only lasted for about 99 months. And during that time, you know, it was very intense. But if it's something that was going on for a longer period of time, it's gonna take a longer period of time for your body to adjust.
And that is ok. And then I would say with, if laxatives are the way of purging, which, by the way, a lot of people that, do, do use laxative as a, as a compensatory behavior, you probably know that it's just a, a sensory relief, like it doesn't actually purge your body of any calories, it's just waste. So you feel lighter for a second, but it doesn't actually change the amount of calories that your body absorbs.
And it's the same thing with purging. Like, even if you eat like the, the quote unquote normal window of like how much time you have to, to get rid of it before your body absorbs, it is like 30 minutes, but that's really not true. Your body starts absorbing the calories in the mouth by the time it gets to your stomach, especially if purging is a normal thing.
Like your, your body becomes super efficient to getting all of those nutrients as quickly as possible. So you digest that shit really quick. And even if like you purge out everything your body is then going to hold on to like 1300 calories for the next couple of days afterwards, which is like a cup, a cup and a half of honey. So just kind of putting that out there that all forms of compensation are ultimately useless.
But yeah, I think just to answer your question, long term effects would be like that stomach acid thing period. Stopping for a long time. Super, super common, especially with athletes and then yeah, like joint or tissue damage from overexercising.
Jenn Junod
Wow. And that's to me a lot that I don't even realize that can cause a lot of issues and I know adding to that with the binging, I mean, we're taught by doctors all the time that it could lead to so many other issues with obesity and type two diabetes. And like that list is, is definitely too long. So I I do appreciate the, the insight on, on the others that I, I personally don't know much about.
And one thing because I, I do want to get to the point that since you do coach on this as well, I am before getting into that. What actually I think now is the perfect time what is some of the resources and how you get through teaching people and helping them through this and then what are other resources that you suggest to people?
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. So the way that I handle the coaching around this is first and foremost, like noting that I am not a doctor and there are times that I will, I will say, like I suggest you also work with a nutritionist at the same time so that they can help you to set up that eating plan at the same time. And what I do is I I kind of attack the urge head on because that is the cause of each and every binge.
Like if you have a bad day, but you don't have the desire to binge, you're not gonna do it. Like you would never advise somebody like, oh yeah, like you've had a long day, just go binge like that's not really, it doesn't make sense, right? So the urge is the cause that we wanna focus on. So breaking it into two of the biological component and the emotional component.
First, focusing on allowing your nervous system to reset, which is by eating more, stopping compensatory behaviors immediately and like the process of working through that. So once you've gotten to the point that, you know, you're not using compensatory behaviors and the the binges have slowed down, which usually when you start eating enough, they slow down by about 60 to 70% and they reduce the intensity as well.
Yeah, just by eating enough. So that's always the first step which depending on the person can take from 2 to 3 months. Some people, it takes a little bit longer. Sometimes it takes less. It's all ok. It's everyone's journey and then working on those emotional urges and learning how to meet your needs, learning how to, you know, care for your needs, care for your body and knowing the emotional triggers that you normally go in through as well.
So the first step of learning that skill of, you know, getting through and dismissing the urges when they do come up recognizing the voice of the bing urge, recognizing, you know how it speaks to you, what kinds of things it tells you and what you really believe in giving more focus to remembering who you really are while you're in the state of feeling like this urge has just like taken over you, which is a very common thing.
So some resources that I always recommend that I use for myself that were big in helping me get through is the book that's called the Binge Code or B the bulimia help Method, depending on which is more prominent for you. I believe the author is Ali Kerr. Yeah. And then also the Brain Over Binge Method by Katherine Hansen. She has a podcast and she has a book, both of those methods go a little bit more in depth as to what I'm speaking of here.
And so the one on one coaching aspect of it is really like taking those concepts in and changing them from knowledge to actual application and learning how to diffuse the shame so that it becomes more of a math experiment or, you know, less drama kinds of things. That's how I like to approach it.
Jenn Junod
Very cool. And a few questions that came up for me while you were describing that. And I've heard from other coaches, I with yours being food, you mentioned about when people may need to actually go to a nutritionist. When how as a coach do you help people figure out or suggest, hey, I'm not a doctor, I'm, you know, this, I'm here to help you with all of this, but this is, you know, you may still need to go see a specialist or you may need
to go see a therapist or a doctor or a nutritionist. How do you describe those three or four differences to a new client that may not have ever been worked with a coach before?
Rachel Shumway
Totally. So in terms of like the doctor, I always look at what are some health things that you're having like dealing with? Is your stomach having a difficult time? Are your joints Are you having other me mouth? That means mental health things that are coming up as a side effect of this depression? Anxiety are pretty normal things. and really just working with the client to see.
Where are you with this? How much of this do you think is caused by the binging if you were eating enough food? Do you think these things would go away? It's like a timeline thing as well of how long they've been ha experiencing those things. So, from a doctor's perspective, that's what I would say from a nutritionist standpoint, if the client doesn't really have a lot of background on nutrition information, sometimes if they have a lot, a lot, a lot of food rules, like, don't eat
carbs, don't eat fat, don't eat flour and sugar. And it's to the point that they are literally unable. And I'm not, you know, comfortable coaching them through eating more than like a small amount of food every single day. Like, if it's more into like the anorexia terrain, then that's when I would like, refer out to, to a nutritionist just to help them have a little bit more safety and security with learning how to build a food plan if that's something that they've never done before.
And then with a therapist when there are like big tea traumas that are involved, like sexual abuse, intense emotional abuse, physical abuse, neglect those kinds of things. It can be helpful to work through with a therapist and more of like those big t traumas with small t traumas which are, you know, everyday things that we all experience, like
someone says something mean to you. There's some body dysmorphia. There's the, there's some comparison that always just kind of comes up naturally through the process. So
Jenn Junod
awesome. And, and 01 thing that, also came up is what's the difference between a dietician and a nutritionist?
Rachel Shumway
So, a registered dietitian has gone to school to university and also I believe, needs to go through an internship and a postgrad. I believe that it's a more comprehensive slash they ha they have a little bit more in depth knowledge with the caveat, which in my opinion is that all of the curriculum is sponsored by the Food and Drug Administration, which has a lot of information and a lot of monetary stake in teaching.
One specific kind of information that I have found is not actually always true for my clients. So, you know, taking that in mind, but obviously, like not all registered dietitians are the same. So and then a nutritionist is more what I found more well versed in holistic medicine. The nutritionist that I worked with in China had been trained in Western and Chinese medicine and also like medicinal foods.
So it kind of focuses more on the healing process. Both dietitians and nutritionists can help with setting up food plans when there is that. And then I find that nutritionists are a little bit more supportive in building up supplementations and like structured eating plans especially if they specialize in eating disorders.
Jenn Junod
Very cool. And, just to make sure I, I'm a lot of this is also, like, just setting in for me. Like, I think I'm gonna go reach out to see if my insurance or something like that is provided as well with a diet, dietician or nutritionist because I realize, you know, even for myself and going through my own journey, that's not anything that I've ever gone. Oh, that could be good to look into and work towards not only what foods I should eat but also, you know, when I should eat and having
somebody that knows a lot more about it instead of the Googles, because the Googles has way too much information to even get started for myself. At least I get really overwhelmed totally to make sure that we didn't skip anything that you really wanted to cover today. Is there anything that we didn't go over that you wanted to share with our audience?
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. What comes to mind for me is at the height of, of the eating disorder and whatever. You know, if, if your listener is someone that is currently in that or has gone through it, that can probably relate to it is at the height. I know that it seems scary. I know that it seems like it's never gonna end that you're totally alone and if you can do one thing to get help is just tell somebody that you trust what you're going through and tell them how they can support you.
Just telling somebody gets this huge weight off of your chest and is really the first step to defusing that shame, which is the first step to breaking the cycle. So reaching out to somebody that you can trust a family member, a friend or if you don't have, you know, that kind of support reaching out to like a professional or a coach or like just even sending a message to someone that you follow online.
Like, hey, I'm going through this, like, it really doesn't even matter. Just telling somebody where you're going through is such a huge step forward in opening the door to progress and helping you normalize your experience.
Jenn Junod
Thank you for that and that you led up perfectly to when you were talking about reaching out, how do others support someone through this? Like if, if I had a friend going through this and, and they told me I wouldn't, I know there's many times where I go personally, I go into like default mode of, well, let's fix this and there's not necessarily anything to fix and just being there for them. But what's a way that your family or friends could have supported you totally.
Rachel Shumway
And like you hit the nail on the head. It's like we wanna go into like this fix it mode of like, let me support you. What can I do? How can I help? What can I tell you? And it's actually the opposite of what most people need. Because remember there's like that big shame veil over there and coming at it from an angle of what can we fix that person who is probably very deeply shame based at that time is going to interpret it as how can I fix you?
So being there providing space and like listening and taking it in and just being like, yeah, I'm hearing what you're saying and then asking them, what kind of support do you need from me? Like I'm here for whatever you need to be a listening ear just to be somebody that knows somebody that you reach out to when you're, you know, having, having an urge or whatever, like a buddy to talk about with like what do you need from me?
I'm here for all of it, not pushing any agendas onto the other person, but really allowing them to set the stage of what it is that they need because that is first and foremost, the skill that they are working on developing is learning what their needs are and learning how to meet those needs. So that's really a supportive way to approach it.
Jenn Junod
Thank you. How I guess in, in and it's not really, I guess the, the emotion that came up for me was what if they need help? Like what if and, and not saying that I'm not enough. I would, I definitely wanna be there for my friends and for family and for whoever, what if they need more help than I can give?
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. And, and what I'll say most of the time is that if a friend hasn't really gone through that, they probably are gonna need more help. So kind of allowing that initial conversation to go how it goes and then I would just say ask them like, what kind of help do you think you need right now and saying it in the most gentle way possible? Like I think that you could probably use some support in this area or this area or this area. Like I'm here to help you to find somebody, not forcing them to
do it, but encouraging them like and, and I like to say it as you could use support here because it's like when I hear like you need help, that oftentimes made me feel just looking back like I'm broken again, coming from that perspective of that person is very shame based in that moment. But how can we help help you to get professional support? What kinds of people can we reach out to? And yeah, like I'll help you find that.
Jenn Junod
And I hear that, I mean, in lieu of, I feel like so many of us don't really know what these conversations or how to start these conversations. I'm not sure if you'd be open to doing this, but can we role play for a second. You know, I love role play. and just will you be that person asking for help? And I will do my best of being that support person. So that way people really see what it or hear what it looks like.
Rachel Shumway
Yeah, totally. Yeah. Ok. Hey, so I need to tell you something and I don't necessarily need like advice or anything like that. I really just need kind of a listening ear and I've chosen you as a person that I can trust and just kind of be there for me is now a good time to talk about this slash I really need to talk about this right now.
Jenn Junod
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I know that we're and thank you for coming to me. We're in the same area. I'm happy to do this over a video or a call, but I'd love to meet up and be there for you. So let me know what I can do best for you.
Rachel Shumway
Yeah, totally. Can we just talk now? Yeah, for sure what's going on. I, I have the momentum now and I don't want to lose it. Yeah. Yeah. So I am struggling with bulimia and I'm having a really hard time like kind of coping with it and I'm super scared, how am I ever gonna get through this? Like I just, I feel so it's really scary and it's super vulnerable for me to say this right now.
So I guess just getting that off my chest, that's where I'm at. And one of the things that I know is helpful for my recovery is just to have a point person that knows what's going on. So I don't feel so ashamed all the time.
Jenn Junod
Yeah. Shit, dude. That is scary. And you are so brave. That is, that is something that I know it is really hard to open up and I, I really appreciate you. You trusting me and, and how always let me know how I can help and I'll be here with you on that journey.
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. Thank you so much. Like I don't necessarily know what it's gonna look like. I don't know like if, if I need text or check in like right now I think for now I, I just like wanna do this on my own. But I want somebody to know about it cause trying to figure all of it out on my own hasn't been working very well for sure.
Jenn Junod
And just one thing I, I wanna point out on my own tendency is there's times I go to fix it mode and you're not broken. So if I ever try to offer suggestions or things like that, feel free to tell me to shut the fuck up Jen. Like that's not your call because I am here for you and I wanna do my best to just listen.
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. Thank you so much. That that means everything like and it, it helps me to, you know, trust you more and, and feel safe when I do feel like I need, I need something just feeling like I can talk to you and, and I'm, I'm not gonna be at risk for spiraling out even more.
Jenn Junod
I got you. I got you. Perfect. Cool. Any feedback on anything that I said as working trying to be there for someone?
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. No, I thought that was awesome. I thought that was awesome. There were sometimes like when I personally reached out to my point, people and they definitely went into fix it mode even though I told them like, I, I don't need advice or anything. So yeah, like if you are the person on the receiving end, it's like really just holding space for what they're going through and it might seem more like counterintuitive to not try to help them fix the problem.
Jenn Junod, Rachel Shumway
But yeah, what you did was perfect and thank you for that.
Jenn Junod
That is something that at least when people have brought things up to me and my partner has told me I go into fix it mode way too many times that I'm like, he'll just be like Jen, I don't need you to fix it. I just need you to listen, I'm like, oh shit, my bad dude. Like I was not trying to go to fix it mode, but as you said, that's default for us. So a lot of times, at least with, with my relationship, if I say I automatically go to fix it mode, please call me out and tell me to shut up to just be here
for you. I know that's scary. I know that's putting in on the other person, but I also still want to be there for them. So thank you for going through this, this role play to give people an example.
Rachel Shumway
Yeah, roleplay is, is useful and fun for sure.
Jenn Junod
And now as we're getting towards the end of this, is there anything else of words of encouragement that you'd like to give our audience, our audience?
Rachel Shumway
Y'all are brave. Like the fact that you're listening to this podcast means that you're probably going through some shit in your life and wanting to find support, wanting to find community and like props to you for staying in the arena for not going and hiding, but from moving towards the challenge and investing in your evolution by trying to find a way through like that is so commendable.
Jenn Junod
Thank you for that. And something that I've, I've really, really wanted to bring to the table and, and something that made me think of this with our call is normally I just ask for what are you grateful for? I would like to also end arts with not just gratitude but also an affirmation and I'll, I'll let you pick the affirmation. No pressure though, if there's not one that's coming up for you, there's one that did come up for me.
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. I mean, I have so many affirmations in my head. So it's just kind of a flurry. Let's, let's go with yours.
Jenn Junod
All right. So, for the, for our listeners, an affirmation, and Rachel, please, you know, pitch in on this one is where you're saying something to yourself. It is an I am statements. And a lot of times I've noticed for myself sometimes it's really scary saying it on in the mirror facing myself.
I've written them before. Sometimes I just say it, you know, under my breath or at setting my intention for the day. And one thing and the affirmation that I'd like to close this episode out with is I am imperfect and I am perfectly worthy.
Rachel Shumway
That's beautiful. I am imperfect like I am worthy in my imperfection.
Jenn Junod
Oh, I like that. I am worthy in my imperfection.
Rachel Shumway
Yeah. And one that just came up for me was I am a person who always figures out their next step.
Jenn Junod
That is a good one too. I am a person that always figures out my next step. And, and for those of you listening, those are great just saying out loud. And I know for myself, I listen to a lot of podcasts while driving. I've shouted them before, especially if there's no one else in the car makes me feel a little better. You know, get some, some, you know, get me pumped up for the day and Rachel. What are, what's something that you're grateful for?
Rachel Shumway
Oh, man, I am grateful for the knowledge that there's always a way out, there's always a way through and the way that I know that is because I can imagine a future where, what I'm currently dealing with is not the same. I can imagine a future that is brighter where I've overcome the challenge. And that means that there's a way there because I can imagine it for sure.
Jenn Junod
I love that. And for my gratitude for this episode is I am grateful for learning on my journey and learning more about myself and the patience with myself that Rachel brought while rescheduling so many episodes and also seeing the boundaries she set helped me respect and build my own boundaries and I'm very grateful for that. Hm.
Rachel Shumway
Oh, I just feel so many warm fuzzies.
Jenn Junod
Good. I'm glad and I hope our listeners are too. Yeah. Thank you Rachel to share.
Rachel Shumway
Absolutely. You're welcome.
Jenn Junod
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