S1 E31 Shit2TalkAbout Talking About Grief with G. Scott Graham
Transcript was AI generated, if there are mistakes, please let me know! Thank you in advance! Jenn Junod
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It's shit to talk about. That's shit. The number two talk about links are in the episode description. Hey Scott. Thank you for joining shit. You don't wanna talk about. Please introduce yourself and what shit you wanna talk about?
G. Scott Graham
My name is Scott Graham Stevens. And I'm an author and a business and career coach. And one of the things I'd like to talk about today is my latest book. Actually, this book was published on June 22nd of last year. So, it's been around for a while. So it's not new, but it is new because it's, it's only a few months old.
Jenn Junod
Well, congratulations on that. Thank you.
G. Scott Graham
It's my 15th book. I'm working on number 16 right now.
Jenn Junod
So, I mean, for someone like myself, I love to talk, but sometimes I always wonder if I'll ever run out of things to talk about. But 15 books, are they, what are their ranges? Are they all one topic?
G. Scott Graham
Now? I, I write on what I'm interested in and what compels me. So there's everything from this book come as you are, which is about grief and loss. And, there's a book about Good King Henry, which is a gardening book and includes recipes. I know, and there's a book about time management, a book about managing your linkedin profile for it to be more effective.
there's a book about careers. I'm working on a book about hiking. if there I write what I want to write about, otherwise I would have written one book and if I write what I want to write about, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm working on my 16th now. So my goal is 100.
Jenn Junod
Oh, my goodness. Well, you are definitely starting.
G. Scott Graham, Jenn Junod
And on the way, I am congratulations and, and you know, most people see it as a big task.
G. Scott Graham
Like I can look at your face and you're like, wow. But, you know, I think of the same thing when I think of, wow, look at, she does these podcasts every, you know, and their video and she does, I could never do that. I could never do that. I could be a guest. You come talk about shit, but I couldn't talk to people week after week about their shit like you can, which is impressive.
Jenn Junod
Thank you. And I, I definitely feel that way about writers because I've I'm horribly dyslexic. So that's why I'm always like write books. That is so cool. And the first thing I ask is, are any of them on audible or audio books?
G. Scott Graham
They are? They are, and this book, this book is particularly good on audible. There is a, there's a chapter in this book that is, is lovingly refer. Well, we can work. This is the shit you want to talk about. So there's a chapter in this book that is lovingly referred to as the fuck you chapter. Because I say I wrote Fuck You over and over and over again. And I really looked high and low to find a person who was skillful enough to say, fuck you 30 different ways.
And, and the guy who does the narration of this book, Ted Brooks was the only one that could really be like, yeah, you know what? Fuck you. And then the next one he's like, yeah, well, like I said before, fuck you, I mean, really, we'll talk about the fuck you chapter because that's, that is a big piece of the shit you don't want to talk about.
Jenn Junod
And I was just about to say so I, I don't know if this one's necessarily an interest of yours for this book as much as you know, life happens. So tell us a bit of the story behind this book and how you got there.
G. Scott Graham
So, about 25 months ago, I was finishing up of a Pana meditation retreat which is a 10 day silent retreat that, you know, there's no calls, no nothing while you're on that retreat. And on the day that the retreat ended, I found out that in something, something was amiss, something was not the way it was supposed to be. And I've discovered just hours after the course ended that my husband of 31 years had died in an automobile accident.
And that was so that was 25 months ago. So that was three days before Christmas December 22nd. And like I said, this book was published on on June 22nd of last year, I did it 18 months to the day after Brian's death that the book was released. And the, you know, I, I, right after he died, like, literally, like maybe two months, right? It was like COVID mania, like the world stopped.
And so then, then there's grief and loss in isolation. Yeah. Right. And so the, the book is, is part memoir. It talks about you know, what worked, what things didn't, what things didn't work, what things I didn't like that happened during that period around support. That's the fuck you chapter. And then it, it has some very pragmatic stuff in it around meditation because I've been practicing V pana and Anna PAA and and meta and meditation for quite some time, 2030 years.
And it includes some strategies that people can put in place around grieving and loss with that. And then I decided to include in the book. I call it grief unplug. The last maybe quarter of the book is a very raw unedited journaling piece that I just published as I wrote it, run on sentences, misspelling. In fact, I have, in fact, I had an editor for the book and she was working on those pieces and she edited all that whole section.
She rewrote sex sentence. I'm like you. No, no, no. This, this section I want to just really reflect what I was going through when I was doing those jo I did 30 days of journaling in this piece and I included every single journal entry as it as it was. And so then I had to get all the pages and pay somebody else to go back and take all the things that she had edited and put it back in the runoff sentences be misspelled.
You know, because I was writing, I'm crying or I'm doing something and it's, it just, I wanted to put something out there that was validating for people who are experiencing loss.
Jenn Junod
And so that's, that's why I included that piece and everything we're talking about right now is definitely some heavy shit and, and I, I feel like my, my go to just like inner response is I'm so sorry for your loss. And I'm curious because you have the, the fuck you chapter and, and you've went during our intro call, we did get a, a bit into it and at least it for, for yourself. What, what do you want people to say when, when you tell them about it about Brian passing?
G. Scott Graham
We, the worst thing that somebody can say is I'm so sorry for your loss. It's, it's, it's, I know, sorry, sorry. No, no, actually the worst thing that somebody could say much worse than that is all things happen for a reason. And the thing that's even worse than that is he's in a better place. Or at least he had a great life together or, you know, at least he sucked, didn't suffer or it's better off.
He died instead of surviving because there was a fire and it would have been really hard to go through that. Or, you know, you'll see him again when you go to heaven. Assuming that I'm going to heaven because, you know, after this podcast, I may have sinned enough that I won't go to heaven. I don't know, or that I even believe in heaven. Or telling me that that's what Jesus wanted or that's what God wanted and all a host of things. Now, these are all things in the fuck you chapter.
Interestingly that starts off with, I'm so sorry, which is probably, you know, that's the thing most people say and it's, and it's a, it is the equivalent of somebody coming up to you, someone came up to you and said, hi Jen. How are you? What would you say? Well, probably if it was a stranger walking down the street or you bumped into someone. Hi Jen. How are you? What would you say?
G. Scott Graham, Jenn Junod
God good.
G. Scott Graham
Fine. Right. Right. Is going all right. Right. It's the equivalent of that around grief and loss and, and does nothing. It does nothing to the person for the person who isn't, who's grieving. It's just, it just is a verbal Hallmark card that people sh shoot out at people who are grieving and think that's just, I'm all set because I said I'm sorry for your loss and, you know, from complete strangers or from
bankers. So, what do you say? What do you say? Like, how about that's fucking awful because that's the truth. That's horrible because that's the truth. Right? Or holy crap.
G. Scott Graham, Jenn Junod
I have no iii I, I'm speechless because that's the truth or I don't know what to say because the truth, I'm pretty sure that's what happened during our intro call.
Jenn Junod
I was like, damn. I don't know how to follow up on that one because that is heavy. I think heavy is the best, best word. Like it's, it is horrible and it's so shitty and people don't know how to like support with grief or like not all of us have gone through grief in, in such a hard fashion in such a a big relationship that I think a lot of people don't know how to also relate with that empathy of it.
G. Scott Graham
You can say that I have no idea how to relate to this, but I want to support you. I have, I've not, I've not lost anyone in my life yet. I can't imagine what that's like, but I want to support you and then shut up. Yeah. And, and because a piece that the piece that is, it is so disrespectful and disingenuous for people to think that their fucking words of a sentence in a Hallmark platitude kind of bullshit way are somehow gonna make everything much better.
It is totally, totally disrespectful to the person who's grieving. Yeah. And, and that just minimizes and brushes away their experience because the assumption is that, oh, you know, all kinds of bullshit stuff that we're taught that, you know, oh, you're gonna get either. We, we're taught either one of two things. the first one is, and they're both bullshit.
The first one is that there's these stages of grief that you go through. A person named Elizabeth Gola Ross, wrote a book for terminally ill people, terminally ill, not people who have gore grieving. And she identified stages that they went through in their acceptance of a terminal illness. She wrote a book about it, death and dying. You know, de denial, bargaining, anger, acceptance, you know, she, she wrote this book about that piece and then it got hijacked by would be
psychiatrists and, and counselors to say, ok, this is what everybody goes through. And so, you know, there's this assumption that there's this piece of like, I don't know that you go through in grief, right? Step one, step, two, step three, step four. We're done. Goodbye. And that's total bullshit. There's nothing in life that works that way.
There is nothing in life that works that way. You know, they think it's like it's like college to do, to do, to do to do. But, you know, the truth is that the, the real peace is what do we go to college for? What did you go to college for? What you go, what did you go to high school for?
G. Scott Graham, Jenn Junod
What was the purpose of that j to drop out?
Jenn Junod
II I kid on that one. because my parents told me so and I would get arrested.
G. Scott Graham
And what was the goal of that? What was the goal of that too?
Jenn Junod
To educate me on something?
G. Scott Graham
I'm not sure to educate you on something right? To learn. Right. And since you have finished college and high school and all that other stuff, have, have you ceased to learn is learning over?
Jenn Junod
Nope.
G. Scott Graham
Right. Learning continues. Right. Grief continues for folks and for folks to treat it like, you know, your four years of college and 1/5 year to get your master's degree for the five step process for grief just trivializes, it just trivializes it. So that's the first fallacy. And then the second a piece that comes out is that our society really has this thing about happiness.
I don't know where it came from. But you know, there, there's this piece that, you know, what, what are we here for to be happy? And people are really uncomfortable. Like I bet when I was talking a few minutes ago and got all emotional, I bet I could see it in your face. I bet I can, you know, if I could see your viewers right now, I could see it in their faces.
Jenn Junod
It's not something that people are comfortable with, I think for my, yeah, but for myself, I, I can say only for myself of course, but it's, it's that feeling of the want to comfort yet knowing. And this is something I went through a, Matthew Hussey retreat and they, it, it's like a five day retreat. All women that they make you, like, go through a bunch of shit.
And they were like, do not comfort, touch, talk to someone crying or going through their shit because they may not want you to touch them. They may not want you to talk to them or comfort them. They need to go through it. And I know for myself and even the expression that you saw it was, I want to comfort, I want to give you a hug. I want to, you know, make it better and because it's, it's hard, you're 100% right?
It is so hard watching someone go through that and without, and feeling so powerless, no matter if you're someone close or if you're a complete stranger, it's like, but I don't want them to hurt. So, yes, 100%. It's to your earlier point of it's bullshit. Words aren't gonna fix anything. Neither is a hug.
G. Scott Graham, Jenn Junod
I mean, it might a little bit, I feel like hugs do a little bit help, but it matters on the person and there's, there's a, there's a, there's an assumption on this when you said I want to make it better.
G. Scott Graham
Right? That's what you just said I wanna make it better. The assumption is that, that expression of emotion is wrong or bad, right? You wanna make, you wanna get rid of the bad and make it better. Right? I got bad grades and I wanna get better grades. You know, I got, I'm bad at running.
I wanna be better at running. Right. It goes along with those things. I'm, I wanna be a better cook. Well, what's the assumption between being a better cook? Well, it means that you probably, you know, have food, poison some of your families on occasion.
Jenn Junod
I, I'm laughing because I'm literally learning to cook. So learning continues. I did not kill them last night. I did succeed at that. I did not, they are still alive and, and it is it is that like wanting to comfort and, and I am curious just to dig into that a little bit more. Is it the fact that people just want to take away the pain? Because that's where I feel like I want comfort because I want to take away the pain because I don't like seeing people hurt.
G. Scott Graham, Jenn Junod
And that's assuming that it's bad.
G. Scott Graham
I was just laughing right now about your cooking, right? And you didn't even react to the laughing piece, right? It was just because people like the good feelings. We want us all to be, you know, ha we everybody and this is the other myth of, of of that, we're fed around grief. The other myth is that either you're gonna go through these stages and then it's gonna be behind you, which it never is.
or that you're gonna go through these stages and then you're gonna come out on the other side, you're gonna see unicorns, you're gonna be farting rainbows, you're gonna be full of bliss and joy and the worlds and, and you are gonna have such an appreciation and joy for life because of what, what a blessing that you went through this. And now you understand the f right? And just, yeah, it's, and it's, and it's all grounded in this piece of God.
We don't wanna, we don't wanna be there when someone else is, is sad and crying. And so the best thing you can do if someone sat is being sad or crying or is to be there, be a witness, you can put their arm around them, get your arm around them. It's that, that can be a grounding piece for somebody, right? Can you can put your arm around them, not take away what they're experiencing but to be close to them and be a part of what they're experiencing.
G. Scott Graham, Jenn Junod
And you might cry too just because you're that close and, and adding to that something that I had to learn the hard way of not knowing how to be there.
Jenn Junod
But also just asking, do you want me to say, do you want me to go, how can I be there for you? And it's scary asking that because I feel, I, it's, it's like I should know how to fix it already.
G. Scott Graham, Jenn Junod
And that's, as you were just saying, I should, I feel like I should fix it and it's not something broken and no, I'm not broken.
Jenn Junod
Exactly. And it's, it's that you can't feel joy unless you feel pain and we keep trying to muddle the pain and get rid of it. So we're not fully feeling joy either. Right? And how did you, I mean, within what, six months you wrote your book? And
G. Scott Graham
that takes, I worked on it for about eight months to a year. Oh, ok.
Jenn Junod
Yeah, I forget that we're in 2022 now, in 2021 I forget that 2020 even happened. You know, I think that's a lot of it.
G. Scott Graham
It's all a bore with COVID. It just feels like a big blob of jelly.
Jenn Junod
Yes. Yes, I'm, you know, mixing up my COVID years. ok. So you were working on it for, you said eight months? That's still, that's still, how was it therapeutic or cathartic to be able to share your story with others?
G. Scott Graham
It's, it's see, the assumption again is that, you know, therapeutic means, that's something that needs to be fixed or cathartic means that you get, get through that. What, what is powerful about sharing the story with others is that I'm hoping people will not have to endure what I went through in terms of the wacky support, the platitudes, the disappearing support.
G. Scott Graham, Jenn Junod
Let me tell you, oh, I was gonna ask you about that.
G. Scott Graham
Two months. We've done whatever and I'm here for you and this and that, and then, you know, I had somebody say to me, six months after Brian died. Are you ready? This is a quote. You're still not over him.
Jenn Junod
Oh my God,
G. Scott Graham
you're still not over him now. I bet there are people listening to this that would never say that. But I bet there are people that would, that would think that maybe not at the six month mark, but maybe at the year mark at the two year mark at the five year mark. That would be like, oh man, he needs therapy because he's still attached to that.
Jenn Junod
One of my best friends died in high school. And I feel really old now. It was almost 20 years ago. And granted, I don't cry on every birthday anymore when she has a birthday. But there's still times where it hits me out of nowhere. That more than anything when I talk about her, I start tearing up because she was such a good influence on my life.
And that just that I think it's, it's heartbreaking to know that she wasn't my significant other. I was a kid. I was 15 and for someone to say that to you, how did that? How did you respond at the moment? And did that go into the fuck you chapter?
G. Scott Graham
It did go in the fuck you chapter.
G. Scott Graham, Jenn Junod
And I did say fuck you in the moment, I did say fuck you in the moment on that piece and you know, you, you, you, you just quick time out really, really quick listeners.
Jenn Junod
You, he hear a squeal in the background that squeal again. I think I heard him and I got really excited and I didn't want them to like anyone watching or like hear me like get all about it. He rescues pigs and Scott rescues all sorts of animals and it's a very cute pig. I got to see pictures. Ok, please continue. I just really wanted to let them know if they hear the squeal and I'm excited to have a pig.
G. Scott Graham
So part of the part of the trajectory of my relationship with Miami, especially in the last 10 years was just a, a connection and compassion for animals. And so when he was alive, with two sources of income, we did our own little rescuing piece and had rescued donkeys and alpacas and sheep and a couple of pigs. And and you know, we were active as foster parents for the Humane Society and helped with cats and dogs too.
But we really took over this rescue farm animal piece because we it's a piece that's not addressed in most humane societies, right. They, they want dogs or cats, right? If you stroll in to the Humane society with your, you know, minivan and come into there with a donkey, they're not gonna know what to do with the donkey.
Jenn Junod
you can fit a donkey in a minivan.
G. Scott Graham
You know what, when I brought my donkeys, that, well, they're Mike, their companions. I brought them, I brought two donkeys back here. Rescue them in a little Kia sport. I know. I know that is impressive. I, we got them in, shut the hatch back down. The only thing I regret not doing and I wish I had done, I mean, I'm not gonna, I don't have the sports anymore.
That was years ago. And, you know, they're getting them in a vehicle would not be easy at this point. But the only thing I wish I had done was gone through the drive through at mcdonald's or Burger King because they were, they had their heads out the window like a dog while I was going down the road. so Brian and Brian and I had much compassion for animals and saving them.
And after he died, what the, the piece for me, you know, we, we did it on our own. So after he died, the piece for me was actually following through, we had planned to have a not for profit for many years, but we never got around to it because we're busy with other stuff. And after he died, one of the things I did in the first three months was to set up a not for profit and have a place where people could donate, volunteer come and help out.
And so in many ways, Brian's been replaced, not replaced, but that his shoes have gotten filled in through people's donations, through people's efforts to come and volunteer. I had a volunteer come a couple weeks ago and she helped me tr trim the donkeys, which is not an easy task to do. But it's, you know, part and parcel of doing this type of work.
And Brian and I used to do that together. And so now it's a two person task, one person has to hold the donkey off and the other person has these ginormous donkey, you know, h clippers to trim their because it basically hooves are like nails. So, and if you don't trim them, they get really long and nasty and potentially infected. And and so they gotta be trimmed every month or two or three, some depending on what they're doing and running around.
So, anyway, we formed a, we formed a rescue, not for profit rescue to be able to give me the support. So Brian's, Brian's still alive in many ways because that vision, oh he's alive because I rescued that pig, right?
Jenn Junod
Yeah. So on, on that, like I feel I've heard or I've seen books and movies and people in my own life that if somebody passes away that they were really close to, they can distance themselves from what they shared with that individual, such as, like stopping a rescue because it was too painful. was that something that you went through of that debate?
G. Scott Graham, Jenn Junod
Was it something that, no, it wasn't, it wasn't even a,
G. Scott Graham
you know, I think this is maybe a unique thing that many couples don't do because many couples are just focused on, I don't know, the day to day stuff, dishes, sex, vacations, you know, game of Thrones, whatever. And, you know, we spent a lot of time talking about how we wanted to be as a couple and where, where we wanted to go individually and where we wanted to go together and what our collective vision was for our life to make it meaningful.
And this wasn't just a once in a while conversation. We talked about this a lot. You know, we said, you know, how, how, how, how are we going to be there in each other's lives? And so we, I knew like there was, there was like no question like somebody got really, you know, it was like, oh, well, you know, that's a choice. I'm like, there's, there is no choice to start this rescue.
There's no choice because that's who we were. That's what we believed in. That was our core value. So to say, you know, oh, that was, it's, it's, it, we often would say that in terms of our relationship, we were, we were on a plane and we threw away the parachutes because so often in relationships, you know, you're, I'm committed to you. I love you, but I'm not all the way in because if there's problems with the plane, I'm jumping out because I have a parachute.
and we actually would say to each other, I'm going to, you know, those the, the parachutes are gone and I've got your back no matter what it is. So, you know, Brian, I, when I knew something was up and I knew that he had died. I did not know, how he died. I knew it was a car accident and I thought, you know, I didn't know what had happened. but, I, strap in.
That's, that's, I'm telling you, strap in. So I, I'm an EMT and a firefighter. and I volunteer, I've been volunteering that for years. And so, and Vermont's very small and people know each other and it's not like this wouldn't happen in the big city at all. and so, you know, I was driving up to and I, and, and I knew that he had a car accident and I, and I wanted to, I wanted to, we were almost on the way there and I write this, I talk about this in the book.
We were, I, a friend came with me and, because I was at her house for breakfast and she came with me and we were almost on the way and I, I couldn't figure out why the detectives, we still there, why they, you know, I thought he'd be gone and, you know, I'd go home and figure out where his body was and have, you know, a funeral. And, and I, you know, I thought he had frozen to death.
This was in December, in Vermont. Very cold. And, we were partially on the way there. And, I called the detective again and I'm like, what's, what's going on? And they're like, we're waiting for the fire investigator to show up from Bennington because Vermont is a very small state. There's only a, you know, three or four fire investigators.
I'm like, oh, I said, are you, is he still on the scene? And they said, yeah, and I said, well, I wanna come by the scene, I wanna see what happened and, I don't think that's a good idea. He said, and I said, look, you know, I'm a firefighter, I'm an EMT, I've seen, you know, pretty horrific things and, I'm gonna be fine. It's like, well, you know, you don't know what this is like, you know, it's your, it's your, your spouse and it's gonna be hard.
And I said, yeah, I know. He said, well, let's, let's talk about it. And so, I rolled up on the scene and, they had called me just before that and they said, you can see his body and you can come on the scene, but we gotta let you know, the body is really badly burned. And, I'm a, so I got, I got him seen and, you know, I pulled up, I got a red, big red pickup Ford pickup truck, looks like a firefighter's truck in rural Vermont.
You know, I turned on my fire lights on. I went up and they had questions as to, in trying to figure out what had happened and the car was beyond demolished. It was just, it was, it was a green car and it was white from the heat of the fire. And, you know, I walked up to the, detective and talked to him and, you know, I really had, I was really in great composure, you know, at all things considered.
And, you know, I said, you know, I, I explained what happened. I said I really wanna see the body, you know, I really need, I need to see it. And he's like, well, he's, he's over there and he was like outside of the car, under a yellow tarp because that's, you know, part of the procedure. And I was like, well, how is he outside of the car because I was expecting him to be in the car.
And, I got to, I'm like, I, I really need to see him. So, I mean, you wanna go, can you identify him? And, so I was able to go past the yellow police crossing, they let me pass the yellow police crossing onto the snow where he was and he wasn't facing me. That boy was facing the cop like, and his, and his right hand was outstretched towards the car. He was kind of laying on his side.
I could see the back of his head. He was completely naked. All of his clothing was completely burned away and his body was incredibly badly burned and his hair was yellow. but, you know, we slept next to each other for 31 years. So I knew it was him. I mean, it was his car. But yeah, I mean, I knew it was him and I said to the officer, I'm like, yeah, that's him.
And I said to the officer because he was, I knew Brian was gonna be cremated and taken to be, you know, for an autopsy. And even if he wasn't cremated, he would have been in the casket, and buried. And I said to the officer, you know, I, I need to touch him and tell them that I love them. And he said, no, you can't do that. It's a crime scene. We don't know and I said, I don't care and they could have stopped me, but they let me put my hand on his shoulder and say goodbye. And I'm so grateful that I
could be with him at that point. And that these police and firefighters and detectives, you know, gave me that permission to say goodbye to him. I, I can still see him and, and see that and feel that and feel him and I would not have had that if it wasn't for those people at the scene, letting me go past the do not cross why? And these are tiers of gratitude, you know, often we cry and, and she emotions and I'm these are tears of gratitude for that piece.
Jenn Junod
How and I, I honestly, that's hard to know even like what we talked about earlier, like where to start or what to say afterwards. And the first thing that does come to mind is how do you learn what is gratitude for something like that and not pain?
G. Scott Graham
I can feel it in my heart. I can feel it in my heart if there's a piece of, of where I feel blessed that I got to do that. It's, it's interesting that you say that because you know, I actually feel gratitude for my grief. I feel I'm and, and you know, it's, it's, it's like, you know, you're talking about your friend that you went to school with right 20 years ago and you still cry.
Why is that? That's because she had a profound influence and she touched your heart in a very deep meaningful way. And those, that's what you're feeling right now. When you think of her and you, and, and what you feel, that's, that's an indication of how deep your relationship was. People die all the time. People die. All the, look at all the thousands of people died today.
I've shared that one tear for them. I don't give a shit. They're not in my life, they're not impacting me. You know. So the, so the, the if you think about that on a continuum, the the people that we care deepest about, we're gonna grieve deepest four. And when I think about the life that we had and the depth of the grief that I still carry that is worth the price of admission. That's the ticket of admission to a full loving life. You cannot love deeply and feel deeply and share deeply and
have a commitment that is deep and supportive like the one that I had with Brian and brush the grief away. There are two sides of the same coin and to suggest that that's the piece that gets me riled up when people are so dismissive about the grief because they are two sides of the same coin. And if you dismiss that side, you dismiss the other side. And so I don't wanna lose this because it's, it's a reflection of the of what we had. Does that make sense?
Jenn Junod
It does to your point about like, with reference to my friend Arleta, she is the only name I will ever get tattooed on my body. I got it when a few years after she passed away. And it's because she is the one that had such an impact on my life and the only funeral I've ever been to that I walked out of the funeral because I was sobbing so loudly and so hard it was, I couldn't be in there.
And it's, it's that, as you said, that gratitude and the grief, it's the gratitude of the memories we have and the impact she had on my life and the impact she had on others lives. And I remember a few years after she passed, her mom came into a restaurant I was working at and she sh she's like Arleta always believed in you. And because she's gone, you have to promise her that you're gonna do something good with your life.
And it was always, there was always a lot of guilt associated with it. And I know that's not something that all people that deal with grief have. But that was definitely a, a very hard part of probably for the 1st 10 years she passed after she passed was why did she die? Not me? Why did she pass? Because she made such a good influence on people instead of me and it was something that I struggled with for so long, even with her mom telling me that of, like, I'm gonna do good in the world and
things like that. And it's a lot that it took a long time to realize. I'm, I lived because I have, I'm supposed to do something with my life and I think she was taken far too soon and that happens. And I think that's, yes, I've tried to say she went to a better place or she's, you know, it's because of eggs or the medical reasons or, and it was because she had like a routine like knee surgery and a blood clot went to her heart.
So it was something very unexpected. It was, she was 15 and it's, it's something that I think a lot of people don't know how to talk about the grief e especially in the extent you did. And I'm very grateful that you did that because even you sharing your story about going to the scene where Brian was. I can, I can't even imagine that of how hard it is. And oh, you're gonna get me to cry of just that happening to Tyler. And how much I realized I was like, no, the ship has sailed, we have no
sailboat like rescue boats and I'm going down with the ship if anything happens to your flight one, the ship is the first thing that happened and how has it impacted you outside of the rescue. You, you started the rescue and how do you find the courage to continue to do good? Because it can be so hard to, to find the motivation to distill do good when a person is missing from your life.
G. Scott Graham
Right? I mean, I think, oh, sometimes it is just going through the motions, right? And sometimes it feels like, you know, not that I'm depressed but sometimes it just feels like, you know, I'm just waiting to die. Right. I'm doing things, I'm making a difference. I'm, you know, doing that stuff, but it just, it feels like that there's just going through the motions.
One of the best, biggest, one of the biggest supports that I, that I've had through all of this huge and if only people could fucking be more like that and I'm gonna tell you what that is, has been from our two dogs. They, that's, they're the best grief counselors on the planet because they don't give you any platitudes when I, when they, when I'm struggling or I'm down, you know, they just, the big black lab comes and sits next to me and puts her head on my lap.
That's what I need. If people could only do that, you know, they should just say what would Scott's big black lab do in this situation and just do that. You know, it's, it's, it's noteworthy that you talked about, you know, the tattoo, right as a way to kind of carry forward, you know, obviously when we were coupled, like it's, it's, it's not traditional for two men to take on each other's names, right?
Who gets the last name? Like when you know, a man and woman married, there's this tradition the woman takes on the man's last name and that's her maiden name and she leaves that behind. And so, I made a decision to, change my name, after Brian died, which after 911 is no small deal because they don't want terrorists changing their name to, you know, something that's gonna let them get on an airplane and blow it up.
And so the only way you can change your name is to, outside of like a marriage and a, and a, and a marriage certificate is you have to go to court and tell the judge what you're changing your name to and then they change your name, they send out the court order and then you get like, I got a new birth certificate because of real ID because of real ID.
Now with your birth certificate and your driver's license and your social security card and all of those, all those little pieces need to match up. So I, since it wasn't, since it was outside the bounds of marriage of, and there was not a marriage certificate that could show that I had a different name just this court order, the only other legal document attached to my name was my birth certificate.
and so I had to send the, the court order to the state where I was born and they issued me a new birth certificate with my new last name. I hyphenated his last name and of course, they just don't do this flippantly. Right. You know, they, you know, you have to go explain to the judge, right? So there I was, you know, t telling the story kind of like what I told here and the judge was crying, the Kirk clerk of the court was crying, a friend that Whitney was crying and she said, you know, what
courage to continue to carry your husband with you. Because every time now you write your name, he'll be there right with you. It's really a profound piece of wisdom. I didn't even thought about that, the pragmatic aspect of writing my name and seeing him, seeing his name next to mine for the rest of my life. But she's right. Every time I write my name, I sing it.
Jenn Junod
And this is I, I have a curiosity question and I, I'm, I want to say it beforehand because it's, it is the instinct of wanting to find something that feels good afterwards. It is that instinct of just wanting to have the happiness. Yeah. It also is like wanting to feel the light in the darkness not necessarily like there's still gonna be shadows, you know,
there's still gonna be, that darkness you could say will always be there, but there is the light and there's also for myself, still curiosity, how did you and Brian meet?
G. Scott Graham
He picked me up in a bar of all places and, he'd asked me to dance with him and I was actually trying to get, I was pursuing somebody else, which he would never let me forget. Oh, yeah, you are after this guy, I won't say his name because he might see this podcast. But anyway, you were after this guy and he asked me to dance and that was his kind of hall.
It was, that was his pickup strategy, right? He'd asked someone to dance and that would be a go that would go and we hit it off very much from the start. And like, I think the piece that he really appreciated about me that I brought and then this really became a hallmark of our relationship even though it started with me was that, you know, I wasn't, I never tried to change him, you know, even though even there were things that I didn't like about him, you know, like, you know, and he, and
he wasn't my title list, you know, so often when we're looking for folks, we have a list. They need to be this, they need to run this, they need to, they need to eat this kind of food, they need to have these kind of beliefs, they have to drive this kind of car, whatever. I had a list and he didn't match the list at all. And and I made a decision to throw the list away and then accept him however he was.
and then that really built into accepting each other through many trials and tribulations over 31 years together. and many ups and downs and difficulties, but at each time, there was an acceptance of what was and so the, the the more important piece around grief to remember is that, you know, grief is gonna come and go like with your, with your friend that you talked about like clouds in the sky without getting too esoteric and philosophic.
But you know, it's gonna come and go and what we need to have is acceptance with whatever that is and be present with whatever that is knowing that it's gonna change, the good times are gonna change, they're not gonna last forever, right? And if we, if we grasp on the good times and try to hold on to those good times, when those good times end, we're miserable. And this, when the bad times come, if we try to push those bad times away, we're miserable. Right? It's like, you know, think of
the last time you ever had a headache or maybe were you ever have ever had a headache and you were not happy about the headache. So, instead of, you know, I've got a headache, your response was? Oh, my God. I have a headache. Oh, my God. It's so bad. I cannot believe how bad this headache is. Oh, it's gonna last. It's, it's been, I took two aspirin and it's still going on. That pushing away makes you more miserable with the headache. You're more miserable than just. I got ahead.
Jenn Junod
I, I'm laughing because you're talking to the lady that had a craniotomy because of the headaches. yes, 100% because it's, I know, especially with the headaches, there were times my vision would just go and it would be so painful and I would get so upset because it wasn't letting me do my job and I, I seriously felt my worth in my job. That's where I found my worth and definitely not in your job.
and once I was like, right, these aren't going anywhere. I actually need to figure this out and see what's going on because this isn't normal. I'm not gonna push it away, but I'm also not gonna just sit here and accept it like I accept it in the fact of I'll be curious about it I think is the best way to say it is to accept it and be curious about it.
G. Scott Graham
That was very philosophical. You,
G. Scott Graham, Jenn Junod
good advice, good advice.
Jenn Junod
It's easier said than done sometimes.
G. Scott Graham
No, it's, it's so many things are easier said than done, right?
Jenn Junod
It is and, and thank you so much for you. I feel like, that today Scott, we were, we were on an emotional roller coaster because there's times you went into deep stuff and then you, you got me to laugh like halfway through it. And I'm like, what, what am I feeling right now? And that I think is another way that we show how dynamic we are as humans, how we feel brief and joy and humor.
And there, as I was saying earlier, there is darkness in the light and there's light in the darkness, it's to your cloud reference. It can be sunny and rainy at the same time.
G. Scott Graham, Jenn Junod
And that, and it's, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a balance because, you know, it's always changing, it's always changing.
G. Scott Graham
It's not constant.
Jenn Junod
It is. And is there anything that you particularly wanted to go over today that we didn't?
G. Scott Graham
I think we hit? there, there would be one piece that I would throw out just for a person just to think about. And that, you know, I've spent a lot of time talking about, you know, accepting your grief and, and that grief is normal, but there's a piece to be aware of and that, and I just kind of hit on it when I talked about this pushing and grasping.
And that is, we also wanna be clear that we're not fueling our grief that we're not doing, you know, like this, like the, the, why won't these headaches go away or? No? It's bad part of my job and all the other stories that go along with that, that just fuels that misery around the headaches. Right. And so we wanna be careful that we're not fueling our grief with stuff because we could easily, you know, ramp up and be in total rainy misery, dark clouds all the time, right?
It's like planes can go see the clouds and then it rains and we can see the clouds and then we're like, it's all dark and gloomy and all of this other stuff. Be aware of that because we don't wanna feed grief. We wanna experience just because the reality like this conversation here today is that life's a roller coaster. So when you talk, you, we, I would be really fucked up if I talked about funny things and didn't laugh and I would be equally fucked up if I talked about sad things and the,
and the loss of Brian and didn't cry and, and, and it would be disastrous if I talked about Brian and laughed or I was talking about something that was funny and was crying because I had seated the cloud so much that that's all I was doing. And the reality is we're full of such vibrant emotion, no emotion is wrong and we wanna be there to support each other and be present around the diversity of
emotions that we have. And so that, that's the, that's the closing piece that I would throw out to folks is that be present and be like my black lab and you won't have any trouble.
Jenn Junod
I, I definitely wanna add in there because I've, I 100% agree of, you know, during humor, you wanna laugh and during grief or sadness, you wanna cry. I know for myself, I've always struggled with detaching as a way to process. I am still working through it in therapy and it is becoming a bit more like, you know, combined and not so separate. And there's very many times where I can tell my story as bullet points, I can tell you ins and outs of the story with bullet points and yet I won't cry
and yet if you look at me funny or don't reply my text, I'll suddenly think the world is ending has become so detached and it is definitely a practice learning that emotions are ok that it's ok to feel and also learning to feel the emotions, which is a very weird thing to do for myself. And it's, it's ok to get help in therapy in our relationships around us and specifically with your black lab, we're all gonna show up in
Vermont and go hang out with your black lab. There you go. And I, I feel like you, you did touch base on our last words of encouragement. Is there anything else you wanna add?
G. Scott Graham
No, this was, this was, I, I would say this is really a great service that you provide, talking about these things that, you know, people just don't want to talk about and they're important, they're really important. So you do, you know you're doing good in the world, like your friend's mother had said to you many years ago, you are doing good.
Jenn Junod
Thank you. And how do people reach out to you and find your book and all your books?
G. Scott Graham
Well, if you, I gotta pick up my book again. Hold on. If you Google, my name. Oops. Where's the phone? G Scott Graham? And with the period you'll Google will serve you up all my books. And they're on Amazon and you can also go to G Scott graham.com and all the links are there. And so, you can reach out to me that way, easily.
Jenn Junod
Awesome. And very last, but not least what is something that you're grateful for
G. Scott Graham
besides my black lab, I would say my little white Jack Russell terrier, who both are just still the best support that I could ever ever hope to get. every night they're in, in bed with me, right? So they fill up that space. You know, I wake up every morning, feeling warm breaths on my neck from the black lab and the little white dog, the little white Jack Russell is down by my, my knees right next to me.
So I can't move. I'm way older, Brian and I had it because we slept with the dogs. And so, you know, we had a, a California king size bed. Right. And so now he's gone and I'm in bed with the black lab and the Jack Russell and they have the entire bed and I, I'm like this in the bed every night. So, and I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for that.
Jenn Junod
Do you think if you end up keeping the pig that you let the pig up on your bed too?
G. Scott Graham
You know, earlier on in our relationship we had a pig, we had a pig that we had rescued and that pig slept with us. Oh, in a king size water bed. Don't, now see you're thinking about that. Don't think about it too much because otherwise it becomes too weird. But, you know, ps king size water bed. Yeah. But there was no p no punctures, no leaks. No, nothing.
Jenn Junod
I think water beds in general kind of weird me out because I've heard, oh, I am. So that like trendy girl that loves the True Crime Podcast. And there's been some about like bodies under the water bed or if I think about a waterbed too much. I think about how do they not puncture all the time of water go everywhere? And I never had one. So I think I, I it takes too much to process.
I, I will for my gratitude piece, I am, I'm grateful to find my emotion and put it back together with the events that have happened in my life and starting to feel them and go through them. And it is a shit show at times. Tyler has had to go through a lot to like learn like what is, what j why are you so upset and then halfway through like us arguing and I go, oh, it's just after this, that happened when I was four and it's all a process and working through it.
And I am so grateful for learning to connect to myself. So, and thank you for sharing today because it was good to hear and really hard to hear. So thank you Scott and we'll talk soon. You're welcome. Hello again, beautiful human. What did you get out of today's episode? We'd love to hear what was most impactful to you. We all know someone that could have really used this episode so please send it their way, remind them that they're not alone.
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