S1 E32 Shit2TalkAbout Dealing With Mortality with Diane Hullet
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Jenn Junod
Hey Diane, thank you for joining shit. You don't want to talk about. Please introduce yourself and what shit you want to talk about today?
Diane Hullet
Hey, Jen. Thanks. For having me. I'm so excited. I love your title. And when I came across it, I immediately thought, oh, well, there's shit I wanna talk about and what I wanna talk about is death and mortality and how that enlivens us to really take a hard look at that.
Jenn Junod
And for those of you listening not watching, I definitely am giving Diane a lot of weird looks because who wants to talk about that? I want to talk about that. I mean, like I do my best to live my life to the fullest, but the only time I've really had to think about what would happen if I die is when I had my brain surgery, they make you do a, a medical will.
And it wasn't the fact of thinking about how it would affect me. Like what happens to me? I was just like, eh, fuck it, whatever it was how it would affect Tyler, my partner and the choices and the hardship that he would have to make. And that like my first little itty bitty bit of thinking about death and mortality. So, what are you talking about?
Diane Hullet
Right. Well, I think it's just, I think it's so interesting. I mean, I try not to generalize wildly because I do think there are families that, you know, do death. Well, and I do think there are communities and cultures that do death well, but generally kind of in our society in America and Canada. Right now, there's kind of this avoidance and you know, it, it ends up with some really difficult situations and I think in some ways, death has been kind of taken over by a medical model.
And, oh, gosh, I could talk about the history of how that kind of, you know, my understanding of how that has kind of come to happen in our country. But, but fundamentally, I believe in what Barbara Carnes says, who's a hospice pioneer and an amazing woman. And she says death is a community event. You know, death is something that we show up for and be with each other for.
And I feel like it in current times. So we've sort of gotten away from that with our, you know, our kind of youth oriented, health oriented, if you just eat right and exercise, right? You can live till you're 95. Well, not necessarily. And so facing this fact that we are mortal and that we do die. I think it's what adds like the real spark to life.
I mean, when we take a hard look at our mortality, it enlivens us to really get straight with things that we wanna make complete before we die. So I, I don't know, I just think it's fascinating and I, I think I've sort of always had a, an openness around death that I know. You know, I, I, some of my friends are kind of surprised like, well, what what do you mean?
Why are you going to that funeral of that, you know, person who died? That, here's, here's the specific example I'm thinking of when one of my daughters was in first grade, one of the moms in the died in a car accident, terrible car accident. And I planned to go to the funeral and some of the moms in the class said to me, well, I didn't know her that well, like, really?
Did you know her that well, why are you going? And I just looked at them and was like, this is the kind of thing you just show up for, like you just show up because someone died, there's a funeral, we knew her. It was tragic. I'm gonna go show up for the family, for the husband, for the kids and just be there. And so I, that's always kind of been not that hard for me to do.
And I know that, you know, many people have trauma around death or they've witnessed really difficult deaths. And so there's a lot of fear. But I also think, well, shit, here's some shit we better talk about because we're all gonna face it in our loved ones and in ourselves. So how do we do it well?
Jenn Junod
And there's, there's so much to impact there. I just the fact of going to somebody's like funeral that I kind of know but don't really know like that gives me the Heebie Skib, just like, thinking about it because in, in my mind, and at least, like, first instinct is, it almost feels like somebody is going to the funeral that didn't really know them but knows them as like attention seeking attention instead of support. And II, I see that it can be a fine line and, you know, it all has to
deal with intention yet at the same time. Like how, like, I, I think something that could be really helpful and we, I've done another episode where we talk about a gentleman's husband died and he had, he wrote a book that says all the shit he doesn't want to hear. And so when somebody says it to him, he says, fuck you. And, and I'm like, yeah, it's, I love this chapter, right?
Diane Hullet
Like, just kind of the blase, I'm so sorry for your loss and you'll get over it with time and like, yeah, yeah. None of that. None of that even touches the kind of raw grief. Yeah.
Jenn Junod
and so into the, the, the funeral part really quick because I feel like that irks me irks. I don't know if that's the best word it's giving me the, the jeebies. How do you go to support people that you don't know very well? Like, how, how does that, how do you even support people that you do know? Well, like, you know, a friend of a friend, a parent of a friend, you know, somebody that's a family member but not that close.
Diane Hullet, Jenn Junod
Like, I don't pay for people the best.
Diane Hullet
Great question. I mean, II, I think it's, I think it's just about presence. I, I don't think it has, I don't think there is any right thing to say. There, there is no right thing to say when someone is kind of in raw grief. But I think just showing up, you know, a comfort touch on the shoulder, a hug if you know them, well, filling the seats, if there's a memorial service and just simply saying, we bear witness to your loss.
I, I think that's the most fundamental thing about it. And I, I think, you know, I don't think funerals are for the dead, funerals are for the living and they, they mark a transition and I think that that transition, it's, it's like we've gotten to this place where we say, oh, let's have a celebration of life. And I'm surprised how many people say, oh, I don't want any kind of memorial after I'm gone.
Well, the memorial is not for you who died. The memorial is for the people who are remaining on this world so that they can mark that you have left. And it's actually a really important part of grieving. Not that, that funeral slash memorial slash life celebration can't be full of some jokes and humor and laughter and good food and shared, community.
But I think it's about coming together to witness. And, I know, you know, when my father-in-law died, a friend that we didn't expect drove up from Den, from Denver and I, I didn't know he was coming. And when he walked in this place where we were holding the service, I burst into tears like there was just something about his willingness to show up.
He didn't even call in Sam coming. He didn't ask if it was the right thing. He didn't know my father-in-law. He came to witness us and that, that really meant something to me. So to me, it's about that context of, of community. And I think when I talked about that funeral of the, the mother in, in elementary school, I think that was it for me. You know, that the father had said this is when her funeral will be.
And to me, I thought, well, some of us from the class, let's show up for this. And it was intense. It was an open casket funeral. She was a Buddhist. She was wrapped very plain in a white shroud and she was bruised from this car accident. She was a little distorted. But if you've seen a dead body, it's very powerful because you actually really witness how much it's a shell and we identify with these bodies.
We think they're the real deal where we think there's such a, an important part of us when a person dies. You see this simple shell and you know, that the being that you knew has left that shell. So there's something really powerful about witnessing that. And I know it's hard. I know it's hard. But I guess I, I guess, I think it's a hard that we, you know, that we should talk about and not shy away from and not, not seeking it, but not, you know, when it presents itself in your life,
try to be present for it. So that's how I answer though. What do you say? I think the platitudes and the discomfort are really awkward for the person who's just lost someone.
Jenn Junod
Yeah. And, and thank you for that, that I, I later on and you and I have talked about this, that we have a slew of death episodes coming out. I say it like with a bit of, of laughter in my voice because I am still slightly awkward about it and it, but they are all specific topics that we need to talk about. And I know for, for this one, it's how do you prepare? Like not only I know that you, you have best life, best death and I just, I think about best life like let's go live our life to the fullest,
make sure we have community yet that doesn't always take care of our closest family or what we should be thinking about. And I, I, you and I talked about it that you have a course where people have a imagine a death date and, and have to figure shit out from there. So what do you go through in that? And how do people process this?
Diane Hullet
It's a great question. I mean, the, the first thing I think to respond with is like, I think at the biggest level, at the biggest level of being human, it is our mortality that gives our life meaning, right? Like if we were immortal, if you could swallow a pill that made you immortal, would you really want it? And I know there's a couple of great novels that kind of asked that question and put that out there.
And it really is an interesting question because you realize our mortality is what makes things so precious, our, our appreciation of who we love, we love them knowing that eventually we will lose them one way or the other. And that's painful, but it's also beautiful. So that's like my broadest biggest question and then, or, or framework I think I would say, and then, yeah, this best three months work is very interesting because we, we do, we start a class.
I typically have a small group of like 6 to 10 people and we name a date that we will pass away on. And it's sort of like by imagining that we, we stir our imaginations to kind of think. Oh, wow, what if and then we talk about our lives and these kind of, it's kind of artificial because you can't really break your life down in these silos of these five domains.
But I find it's helpful because if you talk about your, your physical body, you talk about your spiritual beliefs, you talk about your emotional life and the relationships you and then you talk about like, I call it like, legacy. Like what do, what do you want to leave behind for the people you love? And then we talk about practical like, really what after death care do you want?
Do you want to be buried? Cremated, acclimated? There's all these amazing possibilities now composted. So, so those five domains we discuss in a lot of different ways and it gives people kind of this very concrete launching pad from which to think about what is important to me. What does matter most do I wanna put in in, in alignment, kind of so to speak that, that, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean if you're imagining you have three months to live that you say, oh, well, I've
always wanted to live by the ocean and I'm gonna move to Florida like that. That's probably not what's gonna happen. But how can you bring a little Florida to you or do you wanna go visit Florida or? It's been interesting to me how often the emotional realm is often really important for people. And I've had, you know, a couple people say, well, you know, there's this friend or there's this sibling that I, something happened and we kind of got out of touch and sometimes that's the
resolution that there is no resolution and they're not going to be in touch with that person. But I've absolutely had people say, wow, if I really had three months to live, I would write a letter to that person today and when they do some magic begins to happen and people have gotten back in touch with estranged siblings or a friend that they lost track of.
And I think that's really powerful because the bottom line, the bottom line of all of this, we don't, we don't lie on our deathbed thinking, you know, oh gee, how's my stuff or you know, where's my money? We think who matters to me? It comes down again to this community, this presence of people and the love that we share and how we touch each other.
Jenn Junod
I love that. I love that. And definitely, there's gonna be a couple episodes coming out in the future that we talk about like who do you leave your stuff to if you're a solo ger or Jamie, who introduced the two of us is going to come on and talk about different ways of what you do with your body after death. Because all the ones you mentioned, I think I knew like two of them. I don't know, like the aqua. Yeah.
Diane Hullet, Jenn Junod
I, I didn't know that was, I know it's a whole new thing.
Diane Hullet
It's a whole new thing. And when Desmond Tutu went for acclimation, I was like, oh, my gosh, this is gonna change people's perception of what that is. Yeah. Gosh, there's so much interesting, there's so many interesting books and I'm, I'm just gonna share one right at this moment because it just strikes me, there's this amazing book called American Afterlives by Shannon Dowdy.
And she's an anthropologist and she, this book is the specifically about how, what we do with body disposition, how bodies are disposed of. And one of the things that happened is in her looking at this from an anthropological point of view, she found that after 911 cremation dramatically increased, who knew? I don't even know that she kind of sorts through the why of that.
But that happened. And I believe that COVID is probably really impacting how people see all of this and maybe what, how body disposition happens or somebody like Desmond Tutu, choosing acclimation is gonna put that in people's minds in a way that it just wasn't before. So, yeah, it's, it's a fascinating thing. And as you and I talked about too, I, I was telling Jen that when I got into this, I mean, my background is teaching, right? So I was a classroom teacher and a teacher of
painting and all this kind of stuff and then I became a mom later in life. I wasn't looking for like some career in my fifties. I just sort of, my, my kids were older, they were teenagers. I was like, ok, I have a, a little more time. What do I wanna do? And I took a course with the Conscious Dying Institute in being a sacred passage doula. I swear when I started the course I didn't even really know what an end of life. Doula or death doula was. I hadn't heard that term.
Diane Hullet, Jenn Junod
Please tell us because I didn't know what it was.
Diane Hullet
I will. So I loved it. I, I'll, I'll circle back to that. So I loved this course. And then I took a course after that called the Conscious Dying Educator. And, and that just lit me up because I thought, well, that's what I wanna do. I wanna educate and have conversations with people about this because because it is this thing that this shit that people don't talk about.
So a doula, a death doula or an end of life doula. If you think about a birth doula, they're, they're just the same. So in the same way that a birth doula supports the mom, supports the baby, supports the partner, supports the medical team that is working with the mom, whether that's a hospital or a midwife. The doula is there for the whole kitten caboodle and supporting kind of everyone almost acting if you will as like an orchestra conductor of all these different pieces.
And there's a medical role and there's a family role and there's the patient, in this case, I don't know the patient is the right word, but the birthing mother, you know the laboring mother and the baby. So it for a death doula, it's very similar, a death doula is there to support the family in in and that ranges from the person who's dying to the family members who are nearby or beloved friends, whatever who whatever community has come together for that death.
And and again, I think a death dola supports the doctors, supports palliative of care, works in tandem with hospice. But you know, hospice, this is kind of an interesting thing, you know, hospice has, has shifted in ways and I think the best of hospice is is really this end of life dua work where the where hospice is able to really be present with family and hospice has become a part of the medical system.
You know, it is part of Medicare. You can get six months of hospice and so many hours per week. And there are rules and regulations that say what that is and hospice is a, is a godsend, I think in, in the history of hospice, they were much more able to be fluid in their time and much more able to be present with a family. The intent was really to be with a family and the dying person through the death.
And because of how hospice has become more about medical support for families, more about practical kind of bathing and and you know, the the needs of a body that needs to be moved and so on, it's just shifted a bit and they just don't have the kind of time that a doula can provide. So again, a death doula can kind of act as that orchestrator helping family members talk to each other.
figuring out how to help get them food, figuring out how to coordinate friends, visiting, supporting the dying person and clarifying for the family. What happens in the dying process? Like a hospice worker can do as well a nurse and just kind of providing knowledge that calms fear. I think that's the bottom line of, of this kind of work. So, so you and I had talked about when I got into this work, I found it fascinating.
I realized there were all kinds of niche jobs within end of life. And you know, we sort of think of doctors, nurses, hospice volunteers, hospice coordinators. I don't know, I hadn't heard of doulas. And but there's really this whole rich range of possible jobs and opportunities that I think are so interesting if you're a person who's, you know, comfortable with this kind of shit.
Jenn Junod
So, and I think, and I think that's a, a big call out is just how you talked about that. You never imagined being into this, you know, especially when with your kids. And yeah, you and I spoke about that when you went through your first course for the death doula, you were there to support some of your friends and their families and family members.
And that continued education. You really opened my eyes on how big the ecosystem is and all the different parts. And I love how you talk about that in your own training, that there's like five different stages yet, like the stages of the ecosystem really support those five stages.
Diane Hullet
Absolutely. I mean, when you talk about, when you say to someone, you know, do you have everything lined up? Are you really prepared for the end of your life? People tend to think in terms of like stodgy paperwork. I wanna say like, you know, wills advanced directives, do not resuscitate papers, these are really important. And if you, you know, are over 18 years old and don't have them in place, they're really important. However, that's just like the tip of the iceberg or, or maybe
the foundation of the pyramid. But there's all these other pieces about how you can think about supporting yourself and also supporting your loved ones. And I love, there's a wonderful, another podcaster named Sianna Stewart who has her podcast is called Dying Kindness. And she talks about how can we, you know, how can we make our deaths kinder on those we leave behind and I love her tagline. She says, Dying Kindness, a Pine, a podcast for those who are going to die.
Diane Hullet, Jenn Junod
So it's for everyone.
Jenn Junod
I love it.
Diane Hullet
It's kind of like your your great tongue in cheek like shit you don't want to talk about. Let's bring it.
Jenn Junod
Yeah, it's definitely, there's so much to talk about and I, it, let's, let's go back to the, the five main pieces because we've talked a bit more about the body and you know what we do there. we talked about, emotional, like with family. What were the other three? Again?
Diane Hullet
I usually start a course with the physical because I find it's very interesting for people to kind of think like, well, what does bring me comfort? What do I not like? And suppose I'm dying and not able to speak. How would somebody know that? Have I, have I told my partner, like, you know, I like to be warm all the time, right? Or, you know, I don't like my feet touched, right?
I mean, these are tiny little basic things but if we have time to share what's important to us about our physical bodies and our care that could be helpful for someone to know that in, under the physical care is also this kind of like, do not resuscitate. Do you want to be intubated? All these kind of decisions that you make in an advanced directive are really, really important and, and honestly, all of us are just a car accident away from needing that.
I mean, not to be tragic, but it's really important information. And then I talk about spiritual with people and what I, I think what I find most interesting about that is people are really clear, most people what they believe, whether it's a traditional religious stance, whether it's AAA more spiritual kind of pagan approach, you know, whatever it is when you talk to people, they, they know what's important to them and they know what they believe.
Have they shared that with their spouse? Have they put any poems or songs or meaningful prayers written down somewhere where somebody could find them and read them, not necessarily, but they, but they know, you know, they know their fundamental kind of beliefs. And then the, the third one given, you know what we've said that the third one to, to mention is, is this idea of legacy?
And, and I find that a really interesting one because legacy sounds like this big, you know, capital L legacy. What am I, what am I leaving behind? What building have I put my name on? And I don't mean it like that at all. I mean, it much more like in a creative, joyful, in a meaningful way. Have you written a letter to your child that they could read after you're gone?
Have you got a favorite quilt that you got from your grandmother that you wanna write out the story so that when your best friend gets the quilt, when you suddenly die, she knows the story behind the quilt. Or, you know, you've got this antique watch from your grandfather that you inherited. And you know the whole story of when he bought that watch at a watch shop in Chicago, but it's in your head, nobody else knows it.
So even if that watch is going to be sold at a, at a antique shop, do you wanna write down the story that goes with the thing? And sometimes people even get really in fired and they want, you know, they make a list of 50 things they want to write about for their kids and they, they range from, you know, integrity or what to do after you are broken up with by somebody or a funny story that I never told you about, you know, me and your mom or whatever, whatever the thing is, are there things that
you want to leave behind? And that's a really interesting question for people. And I find in my classes, people do get kind of creative about that. Like, I look at this incredible map on the wall behind you and I'm like, there's a story to that, like, it didn't know what it is. Right. Yeah.
Jenn Junod
So that I, now I, once we get through the other two go through the 51 more time. I wanna see if I can answer these now. And have you asked me questions? So people start to hear what they need to start thinking about for these five, right? So what, what is number four and number five real quick?
Diane Hullet
So the number four we hit on the kind of emotional relational, right? And to me, to me that can be summed up with, are there loose ends? Are there loose ends? And then the last one is this practical matter, right? So, for example, I have a friend whose mother died and she had no, the the mother had never talked about death. The the Children had no idea what she wanted done it.
This happened during COVID, she didn't die of COVID but she died. And, and so here are these three grown kids with no idea what their mother wanted, no ability to have a funeral service? I mean, they were just at loose ends and they said, well, I, I guess we're gonna have her cremated how great it would have been if there had been some conversation sometime beforehand where some of those wishes were known and some people don't care.
Some people say do whatever you want. But again, I find it's a little like spiritual. If you talk to people, people actually do they have an opinion, they have an opinion. So yeah, so I think, you know, I think these five domains. Again, it's a, it's a little bit of an artificial way to break down a life, right? A life is much more than those five domains. And they also overlap.
But it's interesting how useful it is when, what you're trying to do is kind of talk things through. And this is curriculum developed by the Conscious Dying Institute. And I've done this work with individuals and I do this work with small groups. And I personally love the groups because you just, you have a different conversation.
Diane Hullet, Jenn Junod
Well, like the youngest that you've had in our group, I've had people in their thirties and actually I just chatted with one of the, the gentleman, a man in his thirties is in my group right now.
Diane Hullet
And we talked yesterday after class and he said, I think people in their thirties are an untapped resource. He said, I think people are really interested in this. And again, I think COVID has just put this whole conversation in front of people in a way that's just, it's just bigger. The last two years have just, you know, the trauma and the drama and the challenges of it all have just put that in our face where we, we have a greater sense of death kind of walking beside us.
I think. So people in their thirties, a lot of people clustered in their fifties and sixties and my oldest has been 95. 0 my gosh. Yeah. Yeah, amazing, lovely, lovely woman who just kind of wanted to dot The I's and cross the Ts. You know, she had done her, her, you know, the advanced directive and again, kind of the paperwork kind of side of things.
But she really wanted to kind of look at her spiritual life and her emotional life and kind of see, were there any loose ends? Was there anything she wanted to bring forward at the end? Yeah. So cool.
Diane Hullet, Jenn Junod
And she ended up writing, she also ended up writing stories about some of her artwork that she felt like her kids didn't know that is and, and that's something about on the legacy that really popped out to me because many movies have this or even friends of mine where they received a VHS tape and well, like none of us have the board to be able to play.
Jenn Junod
The technology keeps changing and it just is like a random side note that I don't know if it'll help anybody buddy but recording a video digitally, but you can also get a transcript. Yeah. So, and just print it out, put it together, bam, you know, like it, it gives more than one way also pictures from that. Because I, I feel like that's some of the hardest things to deal with is technology. It's not necessarily future proof.
Diane Hullet
Oh my gosh, it's not at all. And it, and the whole technology thing is so interesting because we have this whole digital afterlife. Like I'm sure people have had the experience of, you know, a friend dies and then you keep getting reminders of their birthday on Facebook and you're like, wait, like this person is now gone, but their digital life lives on after them.
So there's both the changing technology of trying to create things that are a legacy piece and then there's the technology that creates this digital afterlife that we have to deal with 100%.
Jenn Junod
Now, when you talked about number one is physical and number five is practical. Right?
Diane Hullet
No, that's how I don't do them in any order, but that's how I like to do them.
Jenn Junod
I, I like him. So would funeral needs go in both.
Diane Hullet
I put funeral needs under practical. I throw those under practical. And again, of course, it overlaps with spiritual. Right. Right. I think that it, that comes down to sort of what do you want after death? What's your, what's your after death? Vision? Is it a party? Is it a gathering? Is it a small gathering? It, is it a big gathering? Is it, are there, is there a particular song you've always loved? Yeah. There's a lot of different places.
Jenn Junod
Let, let's see if I can figure this out.
Diane Hullet, Jenn Junod
So physical would be, what's your relationship to your body now?
Diane Hullet
Like what like what has your body meant to you? I mean, you've had some complicated body stuff. So, how would you, how would you summarize your relationship with this body that you walk in?
Jenn Junod
Oh, that's it complicated and very loved.
Diane Hullet
Yeah. Yeah. And are there particular things that bring you physical comfort now?
Jenn Junod
Blankets and cuddling with the dog?
Diane Hullet
Yes, I saw a lovely dog in the background.
Jenn Junod
Thank you for not letting her interrupt. She decided to force her way into the office and she was getting wine until I let her up on her chair.
Diane Hullet, Jenn Junod
It's on anybody else's chair and wrap her in the blankie.
Diane Hullet
She gets the same blank blanket treatment. I love it.
Jenn Junod
Yes. I always love blankets. I always love blankets in my slippers.
Diane Hullet
Like fuzzy, like heavy. What's the texture of the blankets?
Jenn Junod
Oh. heavy blankets that are fuzzy, like not quite velvet but that kind of like fleece ish.
Diane Hullet
And if someone were caring for you in the last like week of your life and, and what would you wish you had conveyed to them about caring for you physically split pea soup is my favorite soup.
Jenn Junod
So if I can still eat it, please give me that. and just sit and tell me stories.
Diane Hullet
Yeah. And where would you wanna be
Jenn Junod
with my family? Yeah, with Tyler or with my, my best friends are like my sisters and just be around them. Or even if everyone else is gone, put me in like in a nursing home, hanging out with people just to be physically around people.
Diane Hullet
Yeah. So people, people are really important to you in that physical like, like realm. Do you, would you like to be touched? Do you, are you a touchy person?
Jenn Junod
If I trust them?
Diane Hullet
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Not necessarily a new brash volunteer who grabs your hair but a beloved person.
Jenn Junod
Yeah. Yeah.
Diane Hullet
Yeah. Yeah. So that, I mean, that gives you sort of a taste. I mean, what I do is I send reflection questions that people spend time with thinking about and these are just kind of a little sampling of them.
Jenn Junod
Yeah. Yeah. And then spiritual, because that one is you said that most people kind of know what they want to do. Yeah.
Diane Hullet
I mean, what's interesting is like, is like, so, so in your spiritual life, is there anything that feels incomplete?
Jenn Junod
Hm. That I'm not doing a daily spiritual practice, meaning that for myself is meditation and yoga and it's something that's important to me yet, for some reason I'm avoiding it.
Diane Hullet
Right. Right. So this is, I love this. This is sort of similar to what I did one time. I was, when I very, very first was introduced to this best three months curriculum and someone was coaching me through it. I filled out my reflect questions for the spiritual domain and then, she, one of the things I had written down was well, if I only had three months to live, like I would definitely want to download some meditation tapes.
And so, you know, maybe I'll ask some friends what their favorite la, la, la, la la and the person who was coaching me, she left and she was like 20 ft away from me. And I thought, what am I waiting for? Wait, I'll be able to wait until I'm like a month from dying before I download these meditation tapes. And I thought, or tapes, I keep calling tapes.
God, I'm showing my age, audio books or audio sound. So I was like, wait, I don't need to ask friends like I know I love Sharon Salzburg. I love her voice. I love what she says. Boom. So like in 30 seconds, I downloaded a Sharon Salzburg meditation and started listening to it, you know, and I, I opted for just these short meditations that you know, I'm like, I don't have an hour to commit. I'm just gonna try 10 minutes, three mornings a week.
So that's like, that's the kind of example of how sometimes sitting with the end actually impacts your current, right? Because I had this great like, oh yeah, down the road, that would be a really important thing to me down the road. And I'll have to ask five people and think about it a lot. Then I was like, no, no, you're making this way harder than it needs to be like, you, you know, you know, you know what you need and what you want. Yeah.
Jenn Junod
And, and that really does show up in, like, spiritual. I'm like, ok, that's what I wanted to do now. Like, that's something that I would avoid. But, the rest of when I think spiritual goes to the practical bucket with, like, what to do, emotional, I would say, just making sure my, I loved ones all. And this goes into legacy of, they all had something to know how much I love them.
Diane Hullet
Yes. Yes. One woman I spoke with recently she said, she said, oh, I don't, I don't have many possessions. I, I don't have, I don't have a lot of stuff. I've downsized a bunch. She said, but you know, I do have this big bowl and I collect hearts, heart rocks, glass hearts, little gold hearts, all kinds of hearts in this bowl. And as we talked, she decided, oh, I'm gonna put like directions for my daughter that I want every one of my friends to take a heart.
So beautiful, right? So like, you know how, what a, what a thoughtful way to kind of. And there maybe there's a card to each friend that says, pick your favorite heart and read this on Valentine's Day every year or on my birthday or whatever, right? There are incredible ways that we can connect ourselves to others through these simple. I almost want to call them rituals like just simple exchange, right?
Jenn Junod
Yeah. And into the legacy. I, to me that is a big, it is the big way and the small way as that's why the podcast exists and to make everyone feel a little less alone. And even if they don't remember me just remembering sharing their stories to have these shitty conversation.
Diane Hullet
Well, honestly, it's so funny because, my brother is the one who last summer, he said you've got to get into podcast, you gotta find out more about podcasting. I was like, what? And he said, look, you love to talk and this is how people are connecting. And he said, you know, you look forward to your podcast dropping, you know, your favorite person. And you're like, oh, I got my cup of coffee and it's Saturday morning and I'm gonna listen to Jen, you know, and I think, I think it's really
true. And again, I think that's partly the pandemic, probably upped podcasting because we're looking for connection. We're looking for real stories. We're looking for authenticity. So I do think it's a legacy because you don't know how your conversation about what felt too hard to talk about touches somebody else who didn't know that that could be talked about.
Jenn Junod
Yeah. And thank you for that. I, I would definitely say just for the podcast is the legacy for the podcast. And somebody told me it's gonna be a movement and I'm like, oh, I'm not mad at that, but to feel a little less alone so that others go, I have not only have a seat at the table but are given, have a space to have their voice heard and that's, that's
what I see as legacy and for my family and friends to be a part of that. Yeah. And, for a physical, I mean, that one, I mean, I need to do all of my paperwork and I'm done any of that.
Diane Hullet
And, have you got so for you, like, what's the, do you know what the baby step is? Like? Like, is yours complicated enough that you need an attorney or are you gonna do a diy, are you the kind of person who likes to look it up online and just fill it out yourself or do you need like the like, ok, I'm gonna put a little money towards this so it actually gets done like we're all different, you know, in terms of what, what we need to get that done.
Jenn Junod
And luckily for the podcast, we will have someone on the podcast that is a lawyer that does this. And for myself, I'm like, I don't think it's that complicated. I can probably just be like, I, it all goes to Tyler or something like that, you know. but I, I think that's where so many of us get stuck is, I don't know, is it complicated? Is my life complicated is what I want to figure out. Complicated and then also when we talk, to Jamie about, I don't know, what do I need to plan for a funeral?
What's in a funeral? But if I don't want a funeral, what if I just want a big party? What if I just want everyone to sing? Blink 182. All the small things and it's a small world after all because it is, you know, like what it's like, I, I feel like we all make not all of us, some of us are very good at uncomplicated things, at least for myself making it overly complicated.
Diane Hullet
I totally agree. And I think there's this interesting balance because I, I would never want people to listen to me and think like, you know, like, oh, this is about controlling everything or figuring everything out perfectly or like to me, it's not like that. But it's more like if Jen dies, has she told anybody anything about what she wants?
Like, might it be useful? Like, again, I go back to my example of my friend, like, maybe, maybe the mom thought I don't need to tell anybody anything because they'll just figure it out. Well, it was a hardship for the grown kids to figure it out. It didn't make it easier. It wasn't more pleasant for them. So at this incredibly stressful time of their mom, somewhat unexpectedly dying, even though she wasn't in great health, it just made everything harder that this had never been
talked about. So to me, it's all about, it isn't about like, make a plan and then you're set in stone and that, and I'm so controlling. I've got my whole memorial service scripted out for everybody. It's not that, but it's more like, are there things that matter to you that you want to share with the people that matter? So that at this terrible time of someone dying, which is never easy and never, never simple.
How can it be a little simpler? How can we create some ease in an already difficult time? I mean, I think we all know stories of families who implode over deaths, you know, the death of a matriarch or a patriarch. That kind of sometimes the last of that generation is so powerful and it can, it can literally bring families together in the most powerful way and it can split them up and they never speak again.
And I mean, I've witnessed both and I think, well, gosh, I kind of like to help facilitate the first one, you know, where, like where my, my death is actually kind of a AAA powerful thing that's important and supports people. And yes, it's sad and yes, it's difficult but it doesn't, it wasn't made more difficult by things I avoided doing. Right.
Jenn Junod
Yeah, that is, that is such a good way of looking at it. And thank you for helping us not only talk about what to look at, but helping us break down the, how to do it and just asking some questions that you, it stung to me and I thought I was gonna be able to figure it out and now we've, we've definitely used, the majority of our time so far and we've covered a lot like our five, with the course we've covered what, you know, the kind
of dealing with our mortality and how to make it a bit more of a community practice. What have we covered today or what have we not covered today that you want to cover today?
Diane Hullet
Well, I think, I think it's, I think it's important to say one more thing about this piece about how, you know, a mentor of mine kind of a person that I really love is Barbara Carnes and Barbara Carnes is like old school pioneer of hospice, an amazing woman. And she's written, she wrote this little book called Gone From My Sight, which is kind of a standard hospice book.
It sold 30 5 million copies and been translated into a bunch of languages. And Barbara KN says there are two ways to die. You can die fast, you know, a heart attack, a car accident, suicide, those are fast deaths and they're very hard on the people left behind the person who dies was alive one minute and now they're gone. The second way you can die is slowly and that's disease or old age.
And she really promotes that, you know, that a slow death is a gift. It's an opportunity, it's a time to make closure. It's a time to put things in order. It's a time to reflect and all of that I think is so powerful. So I just wanna remind people that you know, Barbara Carnes and her base of the belief that knowledge reduces fear is such a powerful way to kind of confront these, these real, these, this real fact of mortality and that we can, you know, not talking about it isn't gonna make
it come any faster or slower and not talking about it isn't gonna make it not happen. So eventually we will all die and mortality is a reality. But I think again, it's, it's part of what makes life precious and makes our relationships and our, you know, it makes our relationships with our pets more precious that they die so much sooner than we do. And we know that through our beloved and cats, you, you're here forever.
Jenn Junod
Yes, you're, you're with us forever. Fiona.
Diane Hullet
I, I think that's, you know, I think that's just an important kind of broad statement again and that, I, I think if you can like kind of like open the door to kind of take a peek at mortality and a peak at death and not think of it as just this, terrifying thing that shouldn't be talked about or this awkward thing. That's so awful. It's, it's like, it's a big part of being human and in the same way that we kind of celebrate and support birth.
I, you know, in my fantasy world we'd celebrate and support becoming an adult and then we'd celebrate and support these milestones, including this huge transition of death. And it wouldn't be this terrible, horrible, bad. Like we see it as a failure. I think that's part of what's happened with it becoming so medicalized. It's like somehow death is a failure. Death is inevitable. So how do we make it the best it can be?
Jenn Junod
II, I get that and something that II I would like your opinion on is as a 30 something year old. Like I think going through this now is very, very helpful yet. How would you suggest if we need to bring this up with our family members?
Diane Hullet
I think that's a great question. I think, I think the biggest thing is to not think of it as one conversation. You know, it's really a series of conversations, it's approaching it from the side. It's saying, hey, there's this great podcast by Jen. She has this interesting conversation with someone. You won't believe the topic. Like I think there are ways that you just sort of come at it sideways.
Honestly, my parents who are still alive and well in their eighties, they I feel like they just never shied away from it. They, it's not like they put it in our face, but they didn't shy away from it. So when relatives died, I knew or when a pet died, we talked about it and they maybe, I don't know, 10 or 15 years ago, I don't know when it came out. But they said, oh, Diane, we've just read this amazing book called Being Mortal by Atul Gawande.
And this is one of the most beautiful articulate kind of gentle narratives written by a doctor about how he feels like the medical system in its current incarnation. Again, not every doctor, not every system, but that we kind of have failed patience by making death a failure. And he's like, you know, we need to take a close look at being mortal.
So like you could say to a family member, hey, I heard of this amazing kind of classic book called Being Mortal. And then, and then one other book that I love, which I think the title is off Putting to People, but it's called The Art of Dying. Well, oh my gosh, it's really, it should be called The Creative Act of Living. Well, as you age and eventually die, like it's so, so good. And so, you know, if people are willing to read or if they like podcasts or websites, you can kind of shoot these
little things their way. And often I think it's fascinating families, it's often kind of a mutual collusion like, you know, dad who has terrible cancer won't bring up the fact that he might be dying with the Children who are in their fifties who don't want to say, hey, dad, you might be dying. And so nobody quite knows how to do that. And, you know, I think if anything families would probably do well, calling in palliative care and hospice care sooner than they do.
Jenn Junod
Yeah. I think that's definitely something that I feel very fortunate because my mom and I will just randomly talk about it. Like, she'll be like, hey, so Xy and Z and I'm just like, next time, please, or I, I'll just get on the phone with her and I'll be like, hey mom, you gonna do if this happens and she'll be like, what? But that's who I am.
Diane Hullet, Jenn Junod
And I can be a little too direct at times, but there's an openness, like there's an openness.
Diane Hullet
I, I always used to joke that, like, I always used to joke that if you can't talk about death, you can't talk about money. You know, like sex, death and money. Like they're big topic and they're really important. But the families that I see who can't acknowledge death, they can't, they can't figure out their money stuff either.
They, they, they, it gets really convoluted really fast and most people don't want to die and have their kids blow apart. Well, guess what? The way that you help your kids continue to be good. Friends and close siblings is by supporting them through this huge change, not by ignoring it.
Jenn Junod
Yeah, definitely. Thank you. And what words of wisdom would you have for the audience?
Diane Hullet
Well, if it's OK, I'm, I'd like to read a little piece. So this is a beautiful piece called I'll kind of hold it up here and then I'll read it. This is called Practice for Death. And this was written by Tran Estes Tarron Estes Est es, who's the founder of the Conscious Dying Institute. And this, this came to her as a series of, of, of what she calls pith statements, which means like each one in and of itself is complete.
But they also kind of read as a poem if you will. And I guess what I think is powerful about this is that people sometimes find that they really resonate with one or another of the pieces. And it's kind of like a meditation on the end of life. So this is called Practice for Death. And if you don't like the word God, you can substitute whatever word you choose.
I'm gonna throw God in there because that's the first line practice for death. I return to God, I release my body to the earth. I retrieve my energy from all worldly things. I relax into the source of my being. Death is my teacher. I have prepared for this moment. All of my life. All teachings converge for this departure. The truth of impermanence envelops me.
I am free from suffering, I release my spirit to the light. I am forgiven. My work is done. I returned to the light again. That's practice for death. And I can give you a copy of that too. So you can connect it to the podcast. However you wish, I think the idea is that there are these beautiful phrases that we can repeat to ourselves, repeat to our loved ones to help them.
Let go and hearing is the last sense to go. We know that. So even if a person who's dying is non responsive, you can still talk to them, you can still read them beautiful things that will help them make this transition because that is what it is a big transition.
Jenn Junod
Thank you, Diane. And what is how do people reach out to you?
Diane Hullet
Well, you can find out my work about my work and about me at Best Life, Best death.com and I'm on Facebook and I'm on Instagram and I'm like one of these people. I literally was not on Facebook until I started this work. And then I, I thought I'm gonna have to get on social media. So I'm kind of a newbie to the whole thing and it's just been a blast.
I just put up my 1/100 1 100th Instagram post yesterday and I was so excited that I made this dopey little video about it, you know. So it's it's really been a fun journey. So, Best Life, Best death.com is my website. Thank you, Chad. Thanks so much for having me on. This has been really, really an interesting conversation.
Jenn Junod
Yay. One last question for you. What is something that you're grateful for?
Diane Hullet
Excellent question. I love that. I, I'm a person, I'm so grateful for the seasons. Like I look out the window right now in Colorado and, you know, the, the sun is getting much, much higher in the sky this time of year. And I'm actually one of these crazy people. I love the depth that it goes to in December. I love when it gets dark. I love when we have gray days, which we don't have out here that much.
But I love the just that arc of the seasons like watching the sun change, watching the quality of the light change, snow, summer hot. Like I just, I'm so grateful for that experience, which, which I think is a very like in the body human experience, right? That we get to do these, these beautiful seasons. Yeah.
Jenn Junod
Yeah, I love that and something I'm grateful for is movement, even if it's breathing and breathwork or yoga or taking a walk, it allows room for expansion and I am definitely grateful for movement. So, thank you Diane for joining today. Thank you Jen.
Diane Hullet
Thank you for just, you know, I have so much admiration for how you just launched into this and it's really an example to me of someone who said, you know, OK, I've been through some shit and I'm gonna do something with that shit and it's like, I always think it's like, it's not so much what shit we walk through as what do we do with it? And I just feel like you've decided to be an inspiration and decided to be a positive movement force in the world and I just love that. So, thank you.
Jenn Junod
Thank you. Thank you. I think that's a, that's a good way. I've been through some shit now. We're gonna do some shit. I'm like, that's just what I'm gonna tell people now, but that is what I do.
Diane Hullet
That's your bottom line. That's your tagline.
Jenn Junod
Thank you, Dan. Bye. Thank you, Jen.
Diane Hullet
Bye.
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