S1 E19 Shit2TalkAbout Transformation and Transgender with Jack Ori
Transcript was AI generated, if there are mistakes, please let me know! Thank you in advance! Jenn Junod
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Jenn Junod
Hey, Jack. Thank you for joining. Shit. You don't want to talk about what is some shit you want to talk about and please introduce yourself at the same time.
Jack Ori
Sure. Hey, everyone. My name is Jack Laurie and I am a writer, a writing coach and a coach for parents of transgender kids. I'm not necessarily that order and there's so much that I want to talk about, but mainly focusing around the idea that transformation is something we all go through. And we've kind of gotten to this point where like in society, things like trans people are way over there and different and weird, but we're not so different.
Jenn Junod
And I love that e especially when you and I have talked in our intro call and even before we dug into the interview of just talking about how you Oh, ok. Before I dive into this question, please tell me about the in the audience about the books you've written because there's one that I really want to focus on.
Jack Ori
Sure. So I've written a novel, a couple of short stories. I've got another novel that I just actually submitted to Berkeley publishing. So we'll see what happens with that. But, my biggest novel is Reinventing Hannah, which I have this blue background on.
Jack Ori, Jenn Junod
So I don't know if you can see my put it like right in front of your face.
Jenn Junod
Maybe. Let's see. Ok, we kind of fear, we kind of see, we'll put a photo in there.
Jack Ori
Don't worry, we'll, but yeah, so didn't think I went through before I made that background. But anyway, Reinventing Hannah is about a 16 year old girl named Hannah, obviously and Hannah is very shy, very quiet, her friends call her mouse and though she's spent her whole life trying to follow the rules and be a quote unquote, quote, good girl.
That's not quite in line with who she really is. And unfortunately, the first time she breaks the rules that goes to a party of her friend, somebody roofies her and she wakes up the next morning not knowing what happened to her. And, and the book is really about the aftermath of that, you know, I don't focus on the assault itself. You know, I didn't want to go into graphic detail about that because that's not the point.
But it's about how she not only regroups, but she transforms and she goes from being so shy and quiet to being an advocate for herself and for other survivors and having to go through that whole transformation process where she, where her old friends don't understand and think that this is just like, this is something wrong with you. This isn't who you really are when actually she's more, being more who she is.
So she has to like, navigate all that and figure out who she is, who she wants to be and, and how she's going to change and how she's going to, you know, how, how, how she wants to handle what happened to her, all those kinds of things. And I tried to show, I tried to make it more about her transformation because that's like the heart of the book. Like what happened to her was the catalyst for what she decides.
But, and the kind of thing where I feel like a lot of times when people write about sexual assault or read about or show it in movies or TV, they either make the character so completely broken that it's awful or they just gloss over it like, oh, that's no big deal. And I wanted to write something that's more authentic and that was also one of the reasons I independently published it because when I was reading other books and not to knock them because the other books I read were good.
They like, and they were, it wasn't like they were terrible books, but a lot of them were like, girl gets sexually assaulted. Girls didn't tell anybody, girl self self destruct for 300 pages. Girl tells someone who feels better at the end, you know. And so I wanted to write something that was more like what happens after that, you know, like, and to show you don't have to self destruct that.
Like there are more ways to show that sexual assault is a horrible thing than making it turns somebody into a delinquent that is skipping school and doing drugs and having a lot of sex and all those kinds of things. That's like not the only thing that happened. So, yeah.
Jenn Junod
Yeah. And I, as somebody that has, had sexual assault to them, I greatly appreciate that because I can say I've had it happen in two different instances and the second time definitely really hit me hard. I woke up and, well, to my surprise, I had somebody, you know, that wanted some that I didn't say yes to. And, it was very disturbing and I remember walking home and I guess for myself, it didn't really register as much as the first time when I was a kid.
And yet now that I'm adult because this was when, when I was a teenager, I'm like, oh shit, maybe it did kind of register and I need to like work through that shit. But it also I didn't become like a terrible human being or you know, like I actually turned out pretty cool, I think, I don't know. But yeah, I love how that you, you use that because transformation is such a beautiful thing and I know that so many people use like the caterpillar to a butterfly. Caterpillars are still
beautiful. Even if they like decided to chill as a caterpillar forever. They're so beautiful, you know, and the process of becoming a butterfly, you know, they may not have as many caterpillar friends anymore because they have butterfly friends and butterfly friends are, you know, on different waves or different hobbies or different life goals. What made you write this book? Especially about transformation? Right?
Jack Ori
So a couple of things, one was part of it was that I was really sick like because they have all those stereotypes of sexual assault. And a lot of times people think, oh this isn't even really sexual assault because we've got this stereotype in our heads that it's a God that it's a stranger who uses force that holds you down and like these other things that are questionable.
Oh, that's not really anything, you know. And so I wanted to put a stop to that and I wanted to do something to empower people who had been through it. And I never, I, I'm lucky enough that I've never had a full on like rape situation. But, you know, back when I was in high school, I had a situation where I didn't go to my locker at all because when I did go to my locker, this was long before I transitioned.
So it was like, you know, I went to high school presenting as female and I had breasts which, you know, I still have and all that kind of stuff. And, there would be boys who would just touch my breast while I was at my locker and the one time that I called the teacher about it, he spoke to the boy and the boy was like, oh, I fell into her by accident, like, yeah, you don't, you fell into me from behind and touched my breast.
Yeah, I don't think so. So the way I, the way I dealt with was I just didn't go to my locker anymore because I was like that way they can't do that. And that's actually something I made it into the book. one of Hannah's new friends has had an experience like that. And so I wanted to shine light on those kinds of things too because I think those are the kinds of things that are very common in schools, unfortunately where it is the kind of thing where someone will not, will do something like
that, it'll just be brushed off as, oh, it was, oh, it's not a big deal, you know, that kind of thing. And then people feel like they can't talk about it or they can't tell anybody, nobody's gonna care about this. It's not, it's not like somebody did something worse kind of thing, which is, you know, something that I also think happens a lot is that a lot of people are like, oh, well, this wasn't so bad.
It's not like somebody was really violent with me. It's not like I had full on sex with somebody or something like that or, you know, yeah, this person was, did something to me or, but other people have it worse and I want people to stop doing that. So, you know, all of these reasons for writing it. But I also, I wanted to empower, I wanted to spread knowledge and I wanted to show this kind of transformation that somebody could survive something like this and use it to put themselves
together as best as possible rather than just being stuck, which is, you know, again, the stereotype is they're gonna self destruct. This is because this is a bad thing that happened to them. Nothing will ever be right again. And then, you know, throughout the book, I show things are different, she sees things differently but it's not a thing where it's like, oh, she can't move on, you know, and then the other thing I want to do, which I think is a bit different and which I've
actually gotten more push back on this than anything else is a lot of young adult literature has non-existent parrots, right? Like a part of that is because it's fan a lot of fantasy, like you think about like Harry Potter, original real parrots, right? But, but I wanted, I was writing for a realistic fiction, not fantasy. And I also felt like in a story like this where you've got a 16 year old kid who had this terrible traumatic thing happened to, I felt like her parents should be
part of the story, not to the extent of them being viewpoint characters, obviously because it's about her. But, you know, a lot of the books that I've read where a teenager is sexually assaulted will be something where the parents are completely oblivious, no clue what's going on and they show up what's why to say your grades are falling, get them up and that's it and no clue.
There's something wrong with their kid. And I didn't like that because I was like, I don't think that's very realistic either, probably realistic for some people but not everybody. And so I want to go for something more realistic where Hannah's mom and stepdad notice something's wrong with her and she doesn't want to talk to them about what happened.
But, you know, they're, they keep pushing and they keep saying we can tell you're depressed, we're concerned, we're worried, especially her mom who is bipolar and has this, has a suicide attempt in her past is very sensitive to this and is thinking, you know, I don't want my child to go through what I went through. So it's like this push pull thing where they'll be like, come make dinner, come help us make dinner so we can, and then they'll try to get her to talk or like, they'll take
her out to breakfast that then, you know, because I feel like teenagers do have families and in literature it's very often written like they don't like, oh, you're 16, you don't have any parents, you just wander all over the place on your own, you know, and figure out everything on your own.
And I just felt like that wasn't realistic. And interestingly enough, I get more pushed back on that than on anything else. Like I get people being like, oh, not everyone has a good relationship with their parents. So, why should you change the, this stereotype?
Jack Ori, Jenn Junod
And it's like, because, because a lot of people do have a good relationship with their parents.
Jenn Junod
And I, this is something that I, I told you about a guest that is a coach for her, for transgender Children, for their parents. And that was one thing her and I were talking about is she's like, there's plenty of parents out there in the world that really want to be there for their Children but don't know how to be there. And that's for, you know, all Children, it doesn't matter what they are.
Like, it's hard to support. Teenagers are tough. I only say that because I was a teenager once and let's just say my mom and I, we're best friends now yet when I was a teenager she was going through menopause. I was a teenager. It was not the easiest, right? For either one of us.
Jack Ori
No, I think that's so much more real. Yeah.
Jenn Junod
Now when, when you talk about your, the transformation and how Hannah lost friends or, you know, like they saw her change. I'm curious, did you have that in your life as well? Just growing and blossoming into who you are?
Jack Ori
Yeah, definitely. And I think this is something that does happen a lot with transformation of any type and unfortunate that as a transgender person, you know, some people are, are a little nervous about transition and go for your transition because they're like, you lose so many people and I didn't lose a lot of people because most people did see like they were like, you're still the same person.
Some people might not have understood, but they would have just been like, we were just like, ok, that's you, you, you cool. You know, but I did have one friend who was actually transgender also who just took this attitude of like, oh, you're not really transgender, you're just seeing me be transgender. So, you're doing it too kind of thing.
So, you know, that friendship obviously didn't go anywhere. and it's interesting because I, I do have friends who are religious but none of them subscribe to the, oh, LGBT people are against God kind of thing. So I didn't really have to deal with that. you know, which is good. So I didn't have to deal with that as much as other people did, especially since I tra I start transitioning I to North Carolina.
So that was an interesting, and one of the things that happened, that was interesting too. I, when I went to the DMV to, after I changed my, after I legally changed my name in North Carolina and I went to DMV to get my new driver's license and the DMV clerk said, oh, wow, you changed your whole name, for female name to a male name. And she was like, can I ask you something?
And I was like, sure. But I was thinking in my head. Oh, shit, here we go. She's gonna be like, why the hell did you do this, blah, blah, blah. She was just like, oh, I know your middle name is, that's my nephew's name. So I was wondering what it means and so it was like his opportunity just to have a really cool, like connection with somebody. And, you know, I think one of the things that does happen, especially for transgender people because there's so much shit that happens is you get
very oversensitive and you kind of start expecting that everyone who wants has something to say is gonna have something to say. You know what I mean? So, you know, so I find that that's inter, that's something interesting that happens. And you know, I did, when I was in high school, I was transgender without really knowing what that meant.
So I couldn't really explain it. And I also was autistic, but that wasn't diagnosed. So I had a lot of difficulty making friends. And so, you know, for me, the rough thing was that I remember 7th, 8th grade having a little party where I had some friends over, we all watched a movie and then just watching as time went on, like how those friendships just sort of drifted away and it wasn't like any one specific thing.
It was just kind of like, oh, we're in classes together where we're not hanging out anymore, which I think happens a lot anyway for everybody at certain points in your life. But just like that for me as a teenager, it was very confusing because it was just kind of like what's happening here, you know, why are these people, not my friends anymore?
And so in the book, Hannah has a group has has two friends that she's close with at the beginning and as she, and for her part of her transformation is that she sort of shifts her social circle so she starts going out with the guy she likes that. She didn't want that she didn't dare go out with before because her friends wouldn't like it. you know, and she, some new friends, and then it becomes this whole thing of like, how does her old, are, are her old friends gonna fit in her life anymore?
How, you know, that kind of thing? And for her, the hard thing is that one of her friends, one of her old friend she's known since fifth grade. She moved to New York from Florida when she was in fifth grade and this girl was the first girl to befriend her and they've been close ever since. So is this whole conflict where she's like, I don't wanna end this friendship because she was, my first friend and we've been best friends for a long time, but this isn't working anymore.
Like, what do I do? You know? Which I think is, a more like, pointed kind of thing than what happened to me because even though one of my friends I drift away from was someone I had been friend with all my life. It was never this whole, there was never one moment where it was like, you're like this and I'm like this.
It was just more of a thing where, where she was like, I have different friends, different interests. So, you know, we didn't exactly not be friends but we just didn't hang out anymore because we weren't doing the same things. So, yeah.
Jenn Junod
And, and I even in my own friendships, but I'd called two of my two best friends. I call them more of my sisters. I'm an only child so I call them my sisters and one I've known since birth and one I've known since seventh grade. So 11 or 12. And honestly, I don't think the three of us really have anything in common. We don't have any of the same friends groups, except the, they became friends because as we've grown older, I'm 33 now.
They have both come to save me out of some really sticky situations. They became friends as well. But it's like our own special, like bubble, I guess you could say you don't like one of them likes country music. One, they both live in small towns. I love the city. They like. It's, yeah, it's so complimentary. But yet at the same time to have those friendships took so much work and there were times we didn't talk because we were transforming as human beings and who we were transforming
to didn't really mesh with where the other one was. Right. Right. And that includes one of my friends. She, she had, she was one of my first friend to have kids and I shut down. I, I did not know what to do with my best friend having a kid and it was something that I, I still feel horrible about today.
She has told me she has forgiven me. I need to listen, but I stopped talking to her because I didn't know what to do because I was like, you got a kid. I, I don't know how to do that. I don't know what that is. Like, there's little aliens. So, she definitely, there's a kitty.
Jack Ori
He, so he, like, he always does, he loves tail in his butt.
Jenn Junod
but she like, that's definitely was the transformation that we had to work through because, you know, our lives changed. But I have many friends where I'm like, we're gonna be friends for life and within like three years, I'm like, my mom will be like, so what happened? So and so, and I'm like, I just, yeah.
Jack Ori
Right. And I think, I don't know if you found this to be the case for you. But I think for me, I think the whole pandemic has impacted that too because a lot of my latest group of friends I met when I was at Columbia in New York City when I graduated two or three years ago. And before the pandemic, like, I live out on Long Island, they live in New York City.
So before the pandemic I would go semi regularly into the city. To hang out with them. And then after pandemic it was like, I'm not going anywhere, you know, but they weren't nearby. And so we just sort of like our Facebook friends, but we like, rarely talk anymore kind of thing.
Jenn Junod
I definitely had it where I have had some friends that fizzled out like that. I've also had friendships grow stronger because of the pandemic. because you actually have to like, check in with people and be like, yo, you all right. It was also probably the beginning of 2021 where I first admitted to one of my friends and then in tandem ended up admitting it to everyone else.
I get really high anxiety that people when they don't reply, it means that I'm not worth it. At least that was a belief I used to have. So I just wouldn't reach out to people, but that doesn't work when I'm forgetful and forget to reply to people because then it makes me seem just like a total asshole. So that was something that I had to really work through with my friends.
Like we've talked about it. I'm like, cool. I'm gonna make a conscious effort of calling you now and I'm like, it's OK if you don't answer, just, I'm gonna call you and they've actually been surprised they're like, Jenny, you're actually doing pretty good after, you know, 32 years of not doing it. You're doing pretty good.
Jack Ori
Right. Yeah, I've had that issue too because like if people message me, if I don't message them back right away, then it like, slips my mind and then all of a sudden I'm like, oh shit, it's been like a week and I never answered it.
Jenn Junod
Yes. Yes. So I just try to set that, you know, expectation that I'm like, I'm horrible at texting at emailing, at replying and remembering to reply. So if it's something important, feel free to call me like seven times and let me know. And also, you might just get novels of text messages randomly because I remember to tell you a bunch of stuff as a heads up. And luckily they've been like, ok, cool. Thanks. Thanks for the heads up. Got it.
Jack Ori
That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. I found like a lot of times too. It, it, it is a kind of thing where it's like just making that conscious effort to stay in touch, like is really important and it can be difficult. And I think especially for me as an intro, I'm more of an introverted kind of person, you know.
So, during the pandemic, I wasn't like, oh, I'm missing going out of these big groups or anything like that because I really wasn't. But it will be a thing where I'll be like, I haven't heard from so and so in a long time and I wonder if we're still friends, you know?
Jenn Junod
I definitely get that and I'm, I'm curious because, you mentioned earlier that you are autistic, right? Yes. How does that show up with, I'm curious just like, how did, what is odd being autistic look like? Because I don't think I've really done enough research there, but I'm also curious, like, with, with writing and I, this is total hearsay that some mattering on where people are
on the spectrum, some autistic people don't necessarily see feelings or that, you know, read between the lines. So I'm curious how that shows up with your writing as well.
Jack Ori
Right. Yeah. So I want to address that part first because one of the things that one of my many men of life is to raise awareness about autism and empathy because there's this like stereotype that all autistic people don't have any empathy, they don't do feelings, they don't get how it is for other people. And that's actually for the most part not true.
What happens is that a lot of autistic people are super, super sensitive. So it's super empathetic. So it so like if someone comes and comes to me and they're like, really upset, I'm gonna get really upset, like, which is very difficult. Like I've had to like, learn how to put boundaries up as a coach because obviously, if I have a coach that just so they're crying, I can't start crying because I'm getting to the way.
All right. But what happens is that sometimes people shut down like the way you were saying, you shut it, you shut down when your friend had a baby because you didn't know, like, how to relate to it. So, some, some autistic people are like that too where they'll be like, oh my God, this person is crying and they're upset and I'm feeling how upset they are.
It's overwhelming. So I'm just gonna shut down and might say something logical or like the, the cold or unfeeling. But it's more because it's like, whoa, you know, this is very overwhelming kind of thing. So that's something I talk, actually talk about a lot because we got a lot of our ideas about autism from television and movies where every autistic person is rain man, you know, and and it's not, you know, for me, I wasn't diagnosed until I was 33.
And I think for me, I've shown up mostly in the social aspects because what happens with autism too. A lot of times is especially on the end of the spectrum where, you know, you're closer to neurotypical and that is intellectually. I was like way ahead. Like I was reading on a college level by second or third grade. So my fifth grade, I was reading Dostoyevsky, that kind of thing.
So which also makes it harder to relate to people anyway, because the average little kid is not doing that. So, so, but as far as teachers go if you're not a behavior problem, especially if you're read as the girl. Because again, I didn't, you know, I didn't express my feelings about my gender identity also until I was in my thirties. So as a kid, the teachers were like, oh, she's a sweet girl.
So and she's doing well academically and back in the eighties and nineties, there wasn't all this emphasis on social development and our kids socializing properly and do they need these services and those kinds of things? So, like, for example, when I was in first grade, the first day of first grade, I walked into the classroom, there was this one seat open, it was next to a kid.
I don't, I didn't know. And I was like, I'm not next to a kid. I don't know. So I walked past the seat and sat down on the back table at the back of the room that was used like for reading lessons or whatever. And the teacher came in and saw me. She was like, oh, we can't have you sitting back here, let's find you a seat. And she just kind of assumed that I just didn't see the seat and it never occurred to her that I was just like, I was sitting next to a kid.
I don't know, purposely didn't sit there. So those are the kinds of things that I think are probably a little better for people today because I think now there's a lot more awareness. Right. And like, sometimes it seems like every kid has an IEP for something.
Jenn Junod
Yeah. And I, I would definitely say with, like, the neurodiversity in, in general, not just in autism, I have really bad social anxiety that, my second friend who had a baby, I was much more prepared for hers. I went to her baby shower. She had probably 50 people there. Everyone was surrounding her outside and I chilled in the kitchen watching through the window.
And when people are like, oh Jen, are you OK, I'm just like I get really bad social anxiety when I'm by a lot of people. So I'm just gonna go chill in the corner just because like I can't, I can't people right now I might be outgoing but that's gonna be a lot different than the as you were talking about being overstimulated from all of this going on. So I love that you're helping break that stigma for autistic people because even the question I asked you that was basically the stigmatism
around autistic people. And I hate that. I, I'm glad you like crushed it there because I hate that I brought up a stereotype. But how does so now that we get that not all autistic people are, you know, lack of empathy and do have feelings. I'm laughing because it's like embarrassing. So that's, that's where that giggle coming from. How did that show up with your writing? Did people really question your writing because of it or give you any hard time with that?
Jack Ori
Well, there happens, sometimes people make comments like in beta reading, you know, like after you write a draft and you show it to ball to get feedback, where they would be like, why are these characters talking about this openly in front of other people or something like that? You know, and they would be like, I don't think that people would do that.
Like most people would have wanted to do that. And so it's like that kind of thing where it's like, oh, that's something that just never occurred to me because as an autistic person I wouldn't be like, oh, there's someone else standing here, I can't say to you anything about anything important, you know. So, ok, so stuff like that would be like, oh, ok.
So most people wouldn't do that though. I would have to think about that and think about if I wanted to rework it or not. And one of the interesting things for me is that I've never actually had a character who's autistic in any of my books. But I always, like, think about it in the back of my mind because I write very organically that, you know, I start with the character and then I discover more stuff about them as I'm writing.
So, like, my new one, heart failure, which which is the one I just submitted for publication. So, I'm waiting to hear back about that. It took me several drafts to realize that my character had ptsd because she was in a previously previous relationship that was abusive. And so as I was writing, I would see her act in ways that were similar to me as an autistic person.
So that I would think, I wonder if this character turned out to be autistic and then it turned out to be something else, you know, where, she has because of the PTSD, she has a hard time trusting her instincts. So she can't tell, like, is this person really my friend or are they like messing with me kind of thing? And she has a lot of social anxiety and difficult, the trusting people.
And so she has a very small friend group that are people she trusts and then, you know, and it's more of a suspense novel or somebody who's trying to ruin her, her life and she's trying to figure out who it is. But it's like a thing of how can she know who to trust to help her because she can't trust anybody because of what happened to her kind of thing.
So, you know, it really goes into PTSD and some depth, which was real, not easy to write. And one of the things that happened, you know, is when I showed it to beta readers, one of my beta readers and sort of important to mark and be like, why would she be suspicious of this person? Why would she think that? And so it was the kind of thing where it was like, well, because she has this pass to this mental illness.
That's why she would think like that. So, you know, so it's things like that. But, and with Hannah also, like in her early draft, I had rid of her being pretty O CD, like she had a lot of rules for herself, like, oh, you can't order hot chocolate before Thanksgiving or that kind of thing. where she was very regimented, very rigid.
And so so as I was writing it, you know, it would occur to me, oh, maybe she's autistic, you know, like it's one of those things where it's like, you just never know. And because also it also does them for lack of other things like PTSD or O CD or other issues that someone might have.
Jack Ori, Jenn Junod
So, you know, it's always interesting and being a discovery writer, like, it's interesting getting to know the character, they learn like what makes them tick i the entire time you're describing these characters and their development and I'm, I'm very curious, especially since you said that you're a writing coach.
Jenn Junod
Now, I'm literally going, how the hell do you develop a character? Because a, this is something I've overthought so many times trying to write something fictional that I go, oh, this would be a cool idea. Wait, but then they're gonna have this and then they're gonna have this and then I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is so overwhelming. I can't move. So, I, do you mind sharing a bit of where someone might even start on character development with, with writing?
Jack Ori
Yeah, definitely. And this is something that I teach as well. And I'm hoping in sometime this winter, I have probably February March ish. I'm gonna want to do a class because so many people ask me this. So I'm like, I might I, I would love to like teach people all at once. But yeah, one so, but the basic is that I start with the character. So I start with thinking about, you know, thinking about the very bare bones like who is this character like reinventing Hannah?
Hannah is a 16 year old high school student who suffers this traumatic event, right? So that might be where I start. And then, ok, then the next thing that I think about is where do I want her to be at the end of the book? Like what, how she changed at the end of the book? Because then you can go backwards to be like, OK, so at the end of the book, she without giving away the entire story, she's a lot more self confident
and is and is an advocate for other survivors. So OK, so then at the beginning of the book, she has to be the opposite of that because otherwise there's no transformation. OK.
Jenn Junod
So is that it's not as linear, like you're not going as they start here and then their next step is here and then their next step is here, you kind of end up. OK. That solves so many curiosity questions for me on writing. So thank you for that.
Jack Ori
Yeah, definitely. And there definitely are different ways to write. Some people are more plotters where they are like, I want to know every single thing that happens before I start writing, which I'm not because if I was gonna do that, I might as well write it. And some people are what's called panthers because they like right by the edge of their seat of their heads, like they have no idea what's gonna have.
They just jump in and start writing and see where it goes. Which I'm closer to that, but I'm sort of in between because I like to have these bare bones. And and I also like to have some idea of where it's going, some, you know, two or three major events that are gonna happen throughout the book because that just makes it a lot easier because what ends up happening is that if you are a panther or discovery writer, which is somebody who like doesn't do any planning and just sits down and
writes, you're kind of planning it in your head as you go along. Like you're sitting down and being like, ok, today I gotta write the first scene and in this first scene she's talking to her friend just like a random example, you know. And so you're writing it and I find for me keeping all that in my head is too much. Like, if I try to keep all that in my head, I'm gonna be like, I don't know what to do first.
I don't know where this is going and I'm not to write anything or else I'm gonna write something and be like, this is not going anywhere and it's like being an amazing hitting all these dead ends. And so that makes it take forever. Right. So, even if it's just like, sometimes depending on the project, I'll do a little more or less, I did more with heart failure because it's more of a mystery suspense kind of thing where it's like somebody's after her.
So I need to know who they are and what their problem because otherwise the case, so I needed to do a little bit more extensive planning for something like that to make it work. But, or something like reinventing Canada that doesn't have those kinds of mysteries I didn't need to do as much. So, depending on the project I might sit down to write and I might make like the bullet point of these are the three things I want to happen in this chapter.
So that at least I see that on the page. And if I see a bullet point on the page saying Hannah has a fight with her friend, then it's not, I don't have to have in my head what I'm doing at the same time as I'm trying to write. So it's not so overwhelming.
Jenn Junod
That does make sense. And I'm probably asking the most like very basics, you know, novice questions for beginner writers. And I, I'm also asking this because in my mind, writing in general, especially creative writing also is a way of journaling too. And, and so the reason I'm asking this is I've tried those like daily, you know, writing prompts, you, you can find on the internet to try to write something.
So let's say you're supposed to write about this coffee cup and I'll write coffee cup with zebras done. Got it. And, and I feel like that's the part where so many newbies that could possibly be good at writing. Really don't like saying this to you is a lot easier because you know, I can look at the transcript, but I could be like this is a tan mug that came from Michigan City Zoo that has zebras holding each other in a compassionate embrace, you know, like it could be, you know, a bit
better. But have you, how do you would you suggest to our listeners that they can kind of discover that creative side of themselves because I feel like that's so much that creativity, so many of us shut down be and that hinders our transformation to who we are meant to be.
Jack Ori
Yeah, definitely. And I would say a couple of things like number one, those kinds of prompts where you're just describing a coffee cup that's like more of a description than like a story, right? So something like that, like description is something I usually add a later drafts because you don't want to get bogged out and like what everything looks like right at the beginning because then you're not thinking about what's happening in the scene because you're thinking about
what's the right word to describe this color of the paint on the wall or something, you know, and it's kind of like, it, it's kind of like if you're, if you're somebody who is first learning to read, you can't understand what you're reading because you're struggling to put the sounds together. So, the script is kind of like that, that's the thing that comes later. But what I like to do, a couple of things that I encourage people to do, One is free writing where you just like set a timer
for five minutes and you just write whatever comes to mind for five minutes. And the goal is just gotta try it, just keep the head moving or the key of the keyboard, whichever way you're gonna do it, but it doesn't have to make sense. It doesn't have to do anything and you can do that like in response to a prompt or not or just whatever is in your head, like journaling either way. you look like terrified or something.
Jenn Junod
Yes. So anybody watching youtube, you'll be able to see my face for anybody, you know. Listen, I am giving Jack like this like that sounds like the scariest thing ever free writing. So, you know, because, of who I am, I'm totally gonna try it and tell you how it is in like a month. So I expect to follow up Jack.
Jack Ori
Awesome. Yeah, because II I, that's great. Yeah. And it can be a little scary at first because sometimes you might have this blank page and be like, I don't know what to write, but then you could just start writing like nonsense and something will come like I use it a lot when I have, when I'm stuck on what's happening in this story. A lot of times I'll start sit down or freewriting about the story.
Like I'll kind of do like a journal entry like this scene isn't working. It really sucks because bla da, da, da, da da and then like a certain point of doing that, I'll get an idea of how to fix it. So I find that helpful and then the other thing that can be helpful if, especially if you want to get more into writing fiction is to kind of use a what if kind of thing, like you can think about something that happened today and be like, what if it, what if this like catch up that we just said, what if
this happened a different way? So like, like you could take something mundane, like if you drive to work, you can think about. So you could just do something. Like what if I turned the wrong way on this when I was driving to work, what might have happened and you know, right about that and those kinds of prompts I find are more helpful because they're about something happening as opposed to describe the object next to you, which you know, it's a little bit more doing to make it more of a
story because like with the coffee cup, you could write about a character and explain why the coffee cup is important to what they're doing with the coffee cup and that kind of thing, but that's not wrong with the best deal. So, but you can always adapt it that way. So if you wanted to. So, you know, I'm very much a proponent of character first infected.
So, you know, there are, there's character driven, there, there's plot driven and plot driven is like the things that happen are more important than the characters. But I don't like that because then what ends up happening is you're like moving the character around like pieces on a chessboard, right where it's like, I need this character to be in this store because this store because that way she could be there when there's a wrong or something.
And you're like, I'm putting her there for no real reason except I need her there, you know, and I don't like that because it's, to me it's like that's contrived. And readers might be like, why was she there? You know? So, that makes sense. So I prefer to always sort of character like, what is your character really want? Like how are, how do you want them to change?
What is it, they're trying to do that? Those two questions are like the most helpful thing and then you can always also be like, and what's in their way, is the other thing because that's what creates a story. Like if, if even the kind of was the story about how this terrible thing happened and then she decides to change and all her friends said, oh, cool. The end. That wouldn't be a very good story though.
It's, you know, knowing, figuring out, ok, this is happening, what's in the way of her getting what she really wants. And it could be a person, it could be a thing. There are some stories where it could be weather like. Right. Like there's a snowstorm so she can't get home to be with her significant other because of the weather, you know, that kind of thing.
Jenn Junod
So I, I love how you can relate all of these pieces and can definitely see why you are a writing coach. So thank you for the tidbit there and I'm definitely going to do a 30 day challenge for myself of free writing for five minutes. I'm nervous of this because I've tried it before and failed miserably, but you know, I'm gonna give it another go. I am curious because I know that your writing coaching is a bit newer.
I love to dive in a bit more on your transformation coaching and especially you know how you support parents of transgender because those are two transformation. We talked about that quite a bit in your book. How does that, how do people discover that they need transformation or where are they at normally when they go to find you?
Jack Ori
Right. So, yeah, so, you know, people come to coaching for a specific outcome, like no one really comes to any kind of coaching or therapy or anything like that because like, I wanna transform, like that's not usually what people are thinking. So it's more of a thing with this where someone's coming with a specific problem. So the two main groups of people that I being introverts or not comfortable in social situations or whatever the case is and the other group is again, parent, I
feel like it's a little bit more straightforward because a lot, sometimes they have this very specific goal, just like I was talking in real life, people come to coaching with specific goals. So a parent of a transgender child generally is gonna wanna say something like, ok, my child just came out, I don't know what to do or I'm trying to be supportive at everything I say, seems to piss my child off, you know, or my child or I had one client who was like, this really doesn't
necessarily have to do with them being transgender, but my child is lying to me about little stupid things all the time and I want that to stop, you know, so they'll come to the coaching of that specific goal and they're looking for someone who can help them with that and the other stuff is sort of more not subconscious, but it's something that happens along the way, right?
Because like somebody comes to coaching because they wanna know how to support their child of the situation and they'll end up feeling more confident about themselves or closer to their child as the result of what we're doing. But that's not why they came like they didn't set out like I gotta hire a coach because I wanna feel more confident about my relationship as much as they are.
I wanna hire a coach because I have this problem and I need, I don't know what to do. and then the same with introverts because of an intro, someone who is feeling very shy and very quiet and they may be feeling like I should be speaking up about these things and I'm not doing it. anything from, somebody who might feel like I don't agree with my friends about even little things like inventing Hannah.
There's a scene where she recalls that be for this when she last time she went to the mall because she goes to the to the food court in the mall on her first date with her new boyfriend. And she recalled her when she went with her friend last year. She wanted to try the food of the Indian stand, but she didn't do it because that's not what her friends were eating kind of thing, you know.
So it could be something as simple as like as that, which someone's not going to be thinking this is an issue of me not standing up for something important, but just little things like I wanted to try that and I did it or I wanted to do this and I did it, you know, why, why do I have so much anxiety over something that's not that important? You know, someone might feel like that.
Jenn Junod
And that's interesting as I've, I've talked about this in previous episodes of there's so many people calculate or assume that if you're outgoing, you're extroverted and I'm 100% not like I told you earlier that I have social anxiety in large groups where most introverts or excuse me, most extroverts will actually get a lot of energy from being in a large group of people. And I'm like, even doing a podcast episode or if I have to talk to a lot of people for work, I will end up sleeping
for like half the day because I'm like, I'm so mentally drained from like output. I need to like recharge and take care of me. And that took so many years to learn about myself about, you know, how to recognize that I am more introverted than I am extroverted and how to take care of myself, even though it's not normal, that normal. I say it like that because nobody's normal. We all have different ways of doing things.
Jack Ori
Yeah, that's a whole other conversation normal compared to what is like who set that standard?
Jenn Junod
Right? That's why I'm always curious about like neuro diversity. I'm like, so isn't everyone neuro diverse because we all are different?
Jack Ori
Yeah, I mean, to an extent that I think what it is, that sort of like characteristics are labeled as being on the spectrum or what other characteristics are labeled as not being on the spectrum and it's not really a hard of fast flying because, and I think that's one of the things that makes it difficult if you are, if you are autistic or if you have a DH D, which is the other big neurodiversity.
A lot of times people who are neurotypical will be like, but I have some of those traits too, like. Yeah. And so it's like, where do you draw the line between somebody who is neurotypical? But it sometimes gets distracted as somebody who has a attentional issue.
Jenn Junod
Yes. Yes. And that is something. So, I, have been diagnosed with PTSD bipolar type two dyslexia and a DH D. I'm, you know, so you have no idea if I'm gonna be hyper hypomania, which means that I'll be like really pro productive and kind of hyper with the bipolar type two or if I'll just be sleeping somewhere between the two. Yeah. It totally annoys my partner that to clean the house.
If I'm in charge of cleaning the house, I have to clean the closet first to make room for everything else. Which is why, as I said, to you when we started this conversation, that I was running late because my background is not put together. And I do want to call myself out on that just to show, you know, anybody that is because guys, I'm hiding it.
I'm just really good at learning where the camera is and I wanted to take care of everything in the closet first. And, let's just say it takes me a lot longer to claim than most people. So, it's, it's part of like, you know, learning that just because neurodiversity is different doesn't mean that it is bad. Which I think took me a very, very long time to learn. I am curious though because I, I don't want to go too much off on a tangent of that.
I love what the work you do with introverts. And before you said that the other large group that you work with it has to do with parents of transgender. What, what is something I'm gonna ask in, in two pieces, if someone is feeling that they are transgender or that they are not the sex that they were born as or don't identify as that. What are some tips and tricks that you may tell them?
Jack Ori
Right. Yeah. So it all depends on your personal situation because a lot of times and I actually wrote an article about this because I wrote about in gold magazine, I had an article about being transgender during the holidays because a lot of times people might have to see family that either doesn't know or isn't accepting. And so that can be very difficult.
And so it all comes down to a couple of things. One is how, how for you are with people knowing and you know, because the first person you have to come out to is yourself. So people often start with, I always think country people start experimenting because that's how I figured it out because I kind of felt like, weird when people would call me a woman or a girl.
Like, it didn't feel right, but I couldn't really articulate why. So I got my hair cut. I started wearing men's clothes and I would go into restaurants and somebody would be like, how are you doing, ma'am? And that would annoy me because it would be like, hello, I'm obviously not a woman because why would I be wearing a blue button down men's dress shirt and have a crew cut.
And it's granted, you know, there are people who do that who are, who identify as women. So it's not just everyone just being stupid, but, you know, in my head, I was like, this is, I'm still obviously not a woman. What is wrong with these people that would piss me off. And so that's when I started to realize there's more to this than just like, not feeling comfortable with the word woman, you know, so, experimenting as best as you can.
And the other thing is safety because unfortunately there are some places where there are lots of people who are violently against transgender people. And so you have to do what makes you safe, would feel safe. And sometimes I would write when I used to work on the Crisis line, I used to work on the Trevor Project Crisis Line. Which is an LGBT Q specific suicide crisis line.
And one of the things I would tell people because sometimes people would call and they'd be like, I'm transgender. I absolutely cannot be out in front of my parents or I cannot be out at school or whatever the case was. But I'm really feeling depressed because I'm a girl and I'm being treated as a boy or vice versa. One of things I would suggest is we would talk about what can you do to affirm your identity to yourself that other people might not see.
So like, for example, one person might say I can wear a necklace under my shirt, no one else will know it's there, but it's a necklace that matches the gender that I am the, you know. So like or someone else might say I can draw in my journal or write in my journal. I think this person was an artist. But anyway, so they drew a picture of themselves as the girl that they saw in their head and they had that in their private journal so they could look at it and that made them feel better.
And so there's so small things and those things you can do that you feel safe and then when you're ready to come out, if you are, the other thing is like coming out is not something you do to everybody all at once. Like that's the way that they kind of portrayed on TV. Like, oh, this person came out, you know, and you see celebrities do that who like, just like, I'm gonna come out in front of the whole world.
I can announce it in this magazine. That's not the way it works for most people. So you can always like a lot of times with kids, especially who wanted to come out to their parents will be like, ok, so you want to come out to your parents who do you think is more likely to be accepting mom or dad and then like go to that person first or if you feel like either of them expect be accepting.
Do you have a brother or sister? You have a friend who you think will be accepting, you know, and you start with the people who you feel most comfortable with and if you decide you wanna come out to other people, that way you leave the challenging people for a laugh because it builds your confidence when you come out to someone. They were like, oh cool. Right. So and they're totally accepting, you're like, oh OK. So I'm not, I'm not gonna lose everything because this person was
accepting. So you wanna start with those people that you're fairly confident with because that way you can kind of build up to the people who might have a negative reaction because if you start with someone who you're not expecting to it to go well and it doesn't go well. That can make you feel like, oh shit, the whole world is gonna be against me because this is the first person I told that they were shitty about it.
Jenn Junod
Yeah. So starting small and to people that you feel like would be most accepting. And I loved what you said about drawing in their journal about, you know, who they see themselves as or wearing a necklace of who they identify as. I feel like that is such a powerful way to not lose yourself while that challenge of
identifying to the world that is but just like it gives me like, hope is the best way of saying it of if, if people are in a bad situation that they can still stay true to themselves.
Jack Ori
Right. Exactly. And then, you know, and I think as time goes on, there are less bad situations than there have been in the past and it is really cool, like I think you mentioned earlier that most parents do want to support their kids that you we hear on the news. So and so kicked their kid out of the house and transgender people get kicked out of the house and there are parents who are doing that, which is unfortunate.
It's also by the way illegal if your child is under 18 and you decide not to give them housing that's like neglect. But I don't think those are the majority. It's just that so, and so came out to their parents and nothing happened. It, it do. So it's not gonna be reported so.
Jenn Junod
Right. Or supportive parents aren't gonna be in the news. Yeah.
Jack Ori
Yeah. Most of the time, like something like they're in the middle of, some town where everyone is hateful.
Jenn Junod
Yeah. Ok. And how, and, and another part of this question is what are some words of encouragement to parents that just found out that their Children are, are trans and identifying as not what they were born as? Because one thing that I I mentioned earlier is we had a guest on the podcast that also went into the you know, she supports transgender parents. She mentioned that as a mother, she most parents will picture a life for their Children just because that's what parents do.
So it's almost like like letting go of that, you know, not necessarily that they have any problem with their child's you know, switching genders. It's more of the grief that comes with the dream that they didn't even mean to be attached to or do just that naturally happened, right?
Jack Ori
So, yeah, and I think that's important. I also remember it's not that your child is switching genders. It's that they're expressing the gender that they really feel they are, that they couldn't call out. But it's a transition for parents also and that's something I think is really important for the parent to realize is by the time your kid comes out to you, they've done all this soul searching.
They've gone through this. Who am I? Why do I feel like this? Am I a boy? Am I a girl? Am I neither am I both? What the hell is going off me? And they come to a point where they're like, this is why I am. I'm ready to tell mom and dad. But for you, as a parent, you're at the very beginning of that journey when they tell you, so you're not in the same place where you're, you're first, this is probably new to you while as for some parents, it's not, I have had some parents who have said actually, I
always kind of knew and it wasn't a big deal. But, you know, if you're not a parent to, but if you're not a parent to kind of new and this is a shock to you that it's because you're at the beginning stage where your child has already traveled. But it is going to take time to get used to. There is a period of adjustment and I think the most important thing is to realize your good intentions do count for something because if you are wanting to support your child that has to battle and then you
just have to learn the best way to do it. So I think that's important to realize and to realize that some things are just gonna be habits that you have to change, especially when it comes to names and pronouns. I think that's where parents have a lot of trouble because you, unless your child has come out to you when they're like three and even then you had a couple of years, you know, and there are people who do that, there are very young Children these days where coming out.
But for most people, it's something that's gonna happen when your kid a little older or even an adult or a teenager or preteen, you've had years and years of calling them by this name and this pronoun. So in my case, I was 33 years old when I transitioned, my parents had 33 years of calling me by a female name and called me chick. So it would not be realistic after 33 years and just snap your fingers and be like, oh yeah, it's he, it's Jack and not have to think about it.
Jenn Junod
You know, I, I would say that's the same with friends even though I've had them for a few years that have transitioned of going from she to he or they and them the day and them switch me up so hard because I'm like, grammatically. I it hurts my head, not the, the phrasing itself. It's more of like there's he and him and they, and them have always been plural.
So for some reason it gets stuck in my head. Like I'm like, wait, did I say that grammatically? Correct? That's what normally gets. But that's even with people that I've only known a few years. So as parents, I can only imagine how difficult that is.
Jack Ori
Right. I was, they and them, I always advise people think about it this way. Like we do use it in English as a singular sometimes. Like, if somebody finds a wallet, they might be like someone left their wallet on the counter.
Jack Ori, Jenn Junod
So that's a good way of thinking about it.
Jack Ori
So I always encourage people to think about it that way because it's really the same thing. But that's also I think harder for parents sometimes too because they haven't heard this before like they didn't grow up hearing people. Yeah. And so it is a little bit easier even if your child is switching from C to he or he to c because it's more of your real f there are some people who instead of they that might use pronouns like Z or Zim or some other pronoun that's supposed to be a combination
of he and she, that you might not have heard of it all. I was like, this doesn't even sound like English to you. So OK, you know, too, all of those things take time and you always wanna be respectful, you know, you never wanna be like, well, my child said they're using this pronoun but I think it's stupid so I'm not gonna do it kind of thing. Right.
Like that would be not supportive. But you, definitely if you're like she, he or they, I think they're, they now, you know, that's ok to have that confusion and they just expect mistakes. Don't think they don't expect yourself to be perfect at it. And the most important thing is if you make a mistake, just correct it quickly and move on. Like one of the most awkward things for me when I was first transitioning is if I would go and this they really have of my parents or people I do well,
but like I would go to the store, for example, in the days where I was going to grocery stores. So that order got like there's no COVID then. But but for example, I go to the grocery store and someone would say, can I help you ma'am? And sometimes I would just let it go because I didn't always feel like correcting people 24 hours because it gets exhausting. But then sometimes I would say actually please call me, sir.
And sometimes the person would get really awkward about, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize blah, blah, blah, like don't do that, just say OK, no problem. And if it's someone you know, or if you're talking to somebody about your child and you're like, and you're talking about, oh, she, I mean, he, that's all you have to do. You don't have to like make a intro.
Jenn Junod
And I, I appreciate that is something that has been said over and over again is that there's no need for a big production of it. I, I will say as being a host for this podcast that I have a challenge of wanting to make a bigger production when I mess up because to write this set, set the right expectations for how important it is to, to properly acknowledge someone. And I know that's something that I am learning from time and time again of people telling me that you don't want to make a big
production out of it to go. OK, Jen, that is what you've been told by multiple people. You're gonna have to chill and it doesn't need to be a pig production. And Jack, I know we're wrapping up on time, but I just wanna make sure that did we cover everything that you wanted to cover today?
Jack Ori
Yeah, we definitely did. I just wanted to let people know like how to get a hold of me so that they can we continue this conversation. And that also this has been really fun and really cool, really chill. And I did wanna just respond to your last point and say, you know, you can think of it as it's because you have this platform, you can model the way that people need to respond, when they make these kinds of
mistakes. So, still making a big production out of it. If you just sort of like, oh, sorry, I met he or whatever, then your listeners and your viewers will see that's the way to do it.
Jenn Junod
Thank you for that. And that is what I'm learning, even though I want to call myself out on it and it's going well done. That's not what other people want and you have to, you know, be supportive and I really appreciate that. Call out.
Jack Ori
Cool. Awesome. Yeah. So I've got a pencil that is a poem. Nothing but my pencil says Weapon of Mass Creation. So I just wanted to share that with you.
Jenn Junod
Yay.
Jack Ori
Oh, but yeah. So I just want to let people know how to get a hold of me for various things. I'm on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. I'm not doing tiktok yet. I might do that in the future, but I have heard that it's really good for writers. So I will look into it at some point. But anyway, for right now, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at author Jack or E and on Facebook.
My user name is coach at author Jack or so you can find any of those places or on my website. If you are interested in writing coaching, I have one on one slots available right now. You can go to my website Jack A re.com and it's give birth to that book. or you can just go to my website and click on where it says writing, you'll find information about my programs there.
And there's also a section on my website, if you're interested in talking about transgender issues, there's a section for other services there that says full family transition. And of course, with the introverted coaching, there's my no more mouse program is under there too. So yeah, just bookmark my website, you'll find everything there, Jack, a re.com.
And if you want to find, if you want to get reinventing Hannah, it's on Amazon. it's also a pinned post on my Twitter. So you can go there and see the link. Is there an audio book yet? There is an audiobook version of, in fact, when you go to Amazon, you have your choice of kindle soft cover, hard cover or audio. And so you can just click on the right one.
Jenn Junod
My dyslexic sick brain is very, very grateful for that because now I can go listen.
Jack Ori
Yay. Awesome.
Jenn Junod
And Jack last question for you, what is something that you're grateful for?
Jack Ori
So I am grateful for being in fairly good health. I had a health scare about a month ago. and I will be ha I will be having surgery next month but to finish correcting the issue. But and I could go on about that forever because I also have to do with transgender health care and be very grateful that when I was in the hospital, everyone was respectful of my gender identity.
And I was able to get ultrasound on my uterus even though I look. Well, so they were able to find out what the problem was and I have uterine five fibroids. So I'm having surgery too. But, but anyway, I'm really grateful for having my health because when I was in the hospital, I didn't know what was going on because I become severely anemic after some bleeding. I was like, what's happening and my doctor had said it could be cancer, which was really scary to contemplate.
And I was like, just about to launch my program, my writing coaching. And I was also just about to finished my new novel and I was, and it was a whole thing of like, what if it's something really serious? And I don't have that much time left and these things aren't gonna happen. So I'm really grateful that turned out not to be the case and that I'm back to being able to do the things that I wanna do.
Jenn Junod
And I'm grateful you're here. That's not my, you know, daily grateful thing that I was gonna say. But I'm just grateful you're here, to our listeners. I will post this on social media as Well, I just have adored Jack since seeing Jack's website. All of Jack's photos are so friendly. I can't, I just can't, I just, I like share Jack's website with everyone because I was just like, oh my gosh, Jack is so friendly and he was the inspiration behind a lot of my photos.
His one on the grass in front of the house. I just absolutely adore that photo Jack and thank you for being the inspiration and I am so grateful for you. You're just so chill and like so friendly and you break things down so well for I like everyone to comprehend and not in a like in a mean way of breaking it down, which I think is so beneficial and rare. So, thank you.
Jack Ori
Thank you. I'm really glad to hear all that because II I love being around people who get me so and thank you.
Jenn Junod
Yeah. Well, thank you Jack and we'll talk soon.
Jack Ori
Yes, talk to you soon.
Jenn Junod
We appreciate you listening to the episode. Please like follow and share on our social media at Shit2TalkAbout that is shit. The number two, talk about, stay tuned on Wednesdays and Fridays for new episodes. This episode was made possible by production manager Tron Nan, business manager, Bill Powell and your host, Jen.
