Understanding Money Management is Shit2TalkAbout S3 EP 12

“ If it [credit card debt] was normalized for you as a kid, if that is just kind of a thing that a normal adult does to function in the world, you’re not seeing it as something that is so extreme that needs to be avoided at all costs.”

— Sarah Roller

Jenn: Hello. Hello, beautiful humans. Welcome to Shit You Don't Want to Talk about today. We are joined by Sarah Roller, Sarah, please introduce yourself and the shit you want to talk about. 

Sarah: Hi Jen. So my name is Sarah and I am a financial coach. I work primarily with women and couples usually in their. 30s and 40s.

Sarah: And typically they're struggling to save money. They feel overwhelmed trying to create or implement a plan for their finances. And then I helped them understand their spending patterns, clarify what their goals really are, create a personalized plan for proactively managing their money. And by taking a holistic approach, we're looking not just at their finances, but also their lifestyle and their values.

Sarah: So that they can feel confident that they're spending both their time and their money in ways that allow them to enjoy their life today, while also creating the future that they want. And the shit that I want to talk about today is financial conversations that we have with ourselves, as well as financial conversations that we have with our partners.

Jenn: Oh yeah, that's, that is, that is a conversation to be had. 

Sarah: It's one we often avoid, both with ourselves and with our partners. 

Jenn: Yeah, yeah, it is, it is. Uh, so yes, y'all, just to, just to give you a heads up, we've had a, a few start stops on trying to record this and I am seeing a lot just come up for me, having this conversation.

Jenn: A lot of the episodes that I do, I either am not, I'm, it's something that I believe we need to talk about, but it's doesn't have, I don't have a history with it or closely tied to it. This one. Is a little too close for home or a little close to home, maybe not too close and that, uh, it feels a little icky to be talking about it.

Jenn: Like, I feel like there should be hope in this conversation, yet I feel shameful just. Not having my shit together and being like, oh, I'm talking to you because I already have all the answers as well 

Sarah: Figured it all out. Yeah. 

Jenn: Yeah, I don't I don't and in a few of these of the leading conversations to this we talked about Just

Jenn: A big piece that I'm noticing just for myself, and maybe this is a good place to start, and how being in a relationship, we have a lot that we come with, that we don't always realize we come with, and one of those Um, I think one of the biggest habits or, um, behaviors that I see myself and I didn't realize is I came from not always having a lot of money.

Jenn: My parents didn't have a lot of money. I spent, I did spend some time living out of a car. There was money has always been something I wanted to get and, but not something I've ever been able to keep. Meaning that, like, For some reason I can manage having all my credit cards maxed out and be able to sit very comfortably like I can, I can live.

Jenn: I'm like, I'm good. This is life. We're good. And even if I start to pay off my credit cards, I like, I'm like, Oh my God, I don't have a lot enough money. How do I not have enough money? There's not enough money. And I like spend it. And I'm like, this count, this counterintuitive that, that contradicts each other.

Jenn: That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And. Yeah, so you mentioned that these come up in relationships and that's like not one. 

Sarah: Well, yeah, I mean, what you just said, there's so many things that we do that like from a logical perspective, like they don't make sense if someone from the outside was looking at the way that we react around money.

Sarah: It just doesn't make sense. And sometimes you don't always see those things in yourself, but you can see them really clearly in your partner or the comments that your partner makes really highlights some of the, um, less than ideal habits that we have ourselves. So a partner can be a wonderful or a really annoying mirror of what we do.

Jenn: Solidly. Yes. Uh, on that because it was. Something that I've been struggling a lot with is

Jenn: coming to terms with that. Yeah. Yeah. And, and there are like, I will say, I'm in a relationship and we've been together for six years. We've lived together for five of them. So it's like, our lives are very intermingled. We have tried things like, and this, and from what I'm curious on your thoughts, but also, um, want to share for myself.

Jenn: I've always been like, you know, whatever people do with their money, each relationship is very different. I don't know if there's best practices. We tried putting our joints together because we thought that's what we should be doing. And for y'all, I am putting quotes up there because I'm like, should is a solid.

Jenn: Like, nah, that didn't work for us. We finally figured out having his bills be his, my bills be mine. And we have a joint account for our joint bills. We're like, cause that works really well for us. Like we have our freedom. We're not. Constantly having the shame of why did you spend this blah blah blah when they're just wondering like it was never meant to be a shameful thing and it's it's been a very very long journey just to get to this point.

Jenn: But now we're looking at bigger things. Like what if we want to buy a house? What are we like seeing our habits on, uh, you know, paying off debt? How do we create savings? And another point that I want to bring up that I've, I've been seeing a lot on like Tik TOK and Instagram is that. It's shameful to have a savings account.

Jenn: And I know that's a lot to unpack, but I'm kind of just going, Hey, these are all the real things that I'm going through right now. And I'm like, it's not, I don't know. It doesn't always seem hopeful. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so a lot there. Um, I mean, I think, I think especially On the kind of managing money with a partner, there's so many things going into a relationship where like, we know what we're looking for.

Sarah: We know what would work well with our, you know, the traits, the behaviors that we have. I'm really neat and tidy and I would want a partner who is also neat and tidy or something like that. But I think a lot of times we haven't unpacked who we are as like a manager of our money. And so without that information, like what are you even looking for in a partner?

Sarah: What are yo,  bringing like, we just don't have that because we don't talk about money. We don't have that insight as to like how we are compared to others. We have these external metrics of success of like income level and material things that you've been able to acquire. And for most people, those are the benchmarks of like how well or poorly you're managing money.

Sarah: That is like such a surface piece of how you interact with money. 

Jenn: You saying that just made me think that, uh, especially because when it's an external, um, metric, or like, validation of like, people, and, and I will say this is definitely like my own image on myself, but Like how I feel society also interprets it, of like, Oh, you must have a lot of money if you have a named brand car, purse, blah blah blah.

Jenn: But you also must spend a lot of money to do it. And something that I myself have realized is, I may not spend two grand on a purse, but I go thrift, thrifting enough. Like, I like to flip furniture and do that kind of stuff. I'm like, I don't always make a profit on that kind of stuff. And it may not be a one time drop of something, but I can still like, make decisions that are doing the same type of.

Jenn: could be seeing like same type of decision as a one time purchase that is much more visible. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I see a really common thing that I hear my client saying is I can't afford to go on vacation. And that's just a blanket thing. That's like a fact that they're telling me. And then as we're going through how they're spending their money, they'll often say like, Oh, we like to eat out a lot.

Sarah: You know, especially since we don't get to travel, we like to eat out. And that sounds. Great. You know, it's a small consolation for not doing a bigger expense, but if you're spending 500 a month on eating out. If you cut that back to either nothing, 100, 200, even 300 a month, you could go on a trip. So I think a lot of times these bigger kind of like milestone purchases or more visible purchases, there is something that feels self indulgent about them or we have this like, Script in our head of like, I'm not the type of person who can afford X, but then these other little small things that really do add up, we feel safer spending our money on those.

Sarah: And that's not a judgment on like, you should do one versus the other, if thrifting a ton brings you a lot more joy than one larger purchase of a purse. Great, do that. But I think sometimes, yeah, there is some kind of weird value structure that we impose that, again, doesn't always make a lot of logical sense.

Jenn: Yeah. And, and something that we, we talked about previously, and I'm, I'm hearing it now too, is, uh, the previous generation saying, well, you can do X if you stop buying a cup of coffee every day. And something that you mentioned about habits is like, it's whatever small habits that come up. So, um, And I'm curious if you can go into more about prioritizing things, because I know for myself, I would have been like, okay, I'm just going to cook at home.

Jenn: I'm going to do it. It's going to be great. Y'all, I'm a horrible cook. I did not learn how to cook very well. I am not someone that like, it stresses me out trying to learn to do this, to save myself all this money. Like, I have ruined my life. Many, many pots and pans. Like, I can't buy a new, like, Tyler really wants a new nice set of pots and pans, and I, like, I keep having to replace the ones I ruined with, like, going thrifting, because I'm like, I know I'm gonna ruin them again.

Jenn: And Yes, this is, like, something I really want to be able to cook someday, but it's not a priority to me, so trying to make it a priority and do what I should, again, wonderful, stupid word, um, and tell it, saying that I shouldn't be eating out all the time and that's going to save me so much money, I had to learn, like, what is actually realistic and a priority for myself.

Jenn: Meaning that, okay, we don't cook at home very often, but if I have a lot of snacks that are healthier around the house, or like having a meal plan or a meal delivery, if that's something that it like learning different hacks that actually work well for me, instead of trying to do what the Joneses do.

Sarah: Yeah. I think, I think really leaning into like what's adding value to your life as an individual. I think there's so many kind of blanket statements or rules of thumb when it comes to managing money that are like, there's a, there's a, there's a, nugget of goodness in there, but it cannot be applied universally to everyone.

Sarah: Um, I had one client I was working with who was working from home and she started working from home before the pandemic and was just feeling super isolated and like, you know, missed, you know, Being out in the world and we were looking at her spending. She's like, I know I spend so much money on coffee.

Sarah: It's ridiculous. And we looked at her, you know, how much she was spending and it wasn't, she was going out like three times a week or something like that, but was feeling really guilty about it. So we looked at it and we decided, okay, you're going to the coffee shop, mostly to get out also for maybe a slightly stronger coffee than you get at home.

Sarah: Okay. That's what we're achieving here. You're getting a coffee and a pastry. figured out that the adding the pastry doubled the price, but only increased the enhancement of the experience by about 10%. Obviously, those are rough numbers, but like, there was very marginal benefit adding the pastry. So I was like, okay, what if you cut out the pastries and you just got the coffee, you got to get out of the house, you got the stronger caffeine, and then we add it up.

Sarah: If you do that three times a week, it's going to be X amount for the year. Are you okay with that? Okay. Great. Now stop feeling guilty. Stop feeling guilty about that. That's just what it costs. And that adds a ton of value. The days that you have meetings, you're dreading, you get that extra caffeine. The days you're feeling super isolated, you have permission to leave the house.

Jenn: I love that. And I, and I appreciate you talking about like breaking down that behavior. Something that I've seen in my own life and I've heard other people mention it a bit was Okay, so they did this really cool, like, hack, I'll call it a hack, I guess that's what we'll call it for today, um, is they figured out where to save money, but then it gets, it doesn't always get directed somewhere, so it ends up being splurged somewhere else, so it's like, it almost can feel like restricting, yet beneficial at the same time.

Jenn: There are a lot of these, like, Double meanings for a lot of things I'm realizing. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Saving money just for the sake of money is incredibly boring and like not motivating, not exciting. Um, and an interesting thing that it like, perhaps I shouldn't be, this is not a great marketing pitch for my business, but I would say that a lot of my clients, Probably, if they were envisioning, like, should I work with Sarah, how much do I think I might save from working with her, whatever that dollar amount is.

Sarah: It's probably less than the actual progress they make, but what they do instead is they save money in areas that don't have a ton of impact or like it, it doesn't hurt that much to cut out this expense or reduce this expense, but it allows them to free up money so that they can now hire a housekeeper, go on vacation, things that they felt like they couldn't do.

Sarah: That actually add a ton of, you know, if cutting out your takeout, like, you know, let's say you're doing it five times a week. Okay, can you cut it back to three times and now you have money for a housekeeper? Cutting back on takeout, that sucks. But if it means you get to add this other cool thing in, all right.

Sarah: Yeah, maybe that doesn't feel like such a bad trade off anymore. 

Jenn: So if I'm hearing it, it sounds like they may not be saving money, but they're adding a lot of value. Yeah. To their life. 

Sarah: Yeah, and typically my clients do save money, pay off debt, build their savings as well, but a lot of it is finding that permission to spend on themselves, to spend on the things that genuinely add to their quality of life, which I think is a huge piece of it.

Sarah: And I think when we are talking about money, like budgets, it sounds so kind of like scary and restrictive and the way some people approach it, it absolutely is. But I think really leaning into like, why are you doing this? Why do you want to get. better with money? Why do you want to make progress? What is the life you're trying to build?

Sarah: When you look at it from that perspective, it becomes a lot easier to get a little bit more critical with some of the purchases or expenses that don't add a ton of value. 

Jenn: Thank you for that. I don't think there's a good segue into this, but something I really want to bring up is, uh, you mentioned in a previous conversation about when we're looking at behaviors, there are a lot of said and unsaid behaviors that we get growing up.

Jenn: And I'm curious if you can go through a few of them or how we. Might start clarifying these for ourselves, because you mentioned some that I was just like, Oh damn, I had what, that's a thing. 

Sarah: Well, yeah. And I think, I think when we're growing up, we absorb from our parents primarily, but also our extended family, the community we grow up in, that's kind of how we learn how money works in the world, how we should interact with money, how we should treat money.

Sarah: A lot of the things we pick up are things that our parents directly say to us about money. Most, I mean, most of our parents, you know, didn't sit us down and have like the money talk. I mean, you know, a lot of parents didn't have the sex talk. I would say a lot fewer have a money talk. Um, So a lot of the things that we're hearing are not necessarily like, this is how a 401k works, but more of a, you know, goddamn, that electricity bill is high.

Sarah: What are you kids doing? Um, so the little tidbits that we heard our parents say, or often the phrases that we heard our parents say, you know, there's a huge range of things, whether they're positive, negative, but those little sound bites tend to be kind of how we filter things through as an adult. Um, Going back to the, you know, managing money with a partner, a lot of times it's not until you're with someone else and you, that you start realizing that you are replicating what was modeled for you.

Jenn: I, I see that a lot in things that I don't always realize, like there are items from growing up that I can, I know they existed. I think that I don't do them. , but I still totally do that. Mm-Hmm. . Um, one of which is there was, uh, my dad just didn't always make the wisest decisions in, in saying that, uh, he got a really big bonus from work one day.

Jenn: And, uh, we were past due on. My parent's mortgage, these type of things, but he went and bought like a new VCR and, uh, a new Nintendo. And I, it sounds really weird to remember this. I was, I'm an only child. I was like six. I'm not, I wasn't allowed to play the video games. I was very upset about this. So my six year old brain, this was the most upsetting part of it.

Jenn: Uh, come to find out later on, it was, uh, I found out that. It happened with the mortgage. It happened with the credit cards. Like he would, these were habits that he continued to do to up until the point when my parents split up because he wiped our bank accounts and left me and my mom. And it's interesting to see.

Jenn: Him continuing to do that life cycle, even after they split up when I was, like, 12. So over 20 years ago, like, they, he continues to do the cycle, and I honestly had no idea until, you know, I started looking at this for myself. But I do it too. And it's really frustrating, like, yes, all my bills are paid. But I was asking you about that reference, like, if I'm saving money from not getting a pastry, that just means I can get a more expensive video game.

Jenn: Or, I can do more expensive food, or, like, it's those things where I, I personally don't redirect in the best areas, and it really did show up when Being in a relationship to go. Oh, I guess I didn't realize I did that. 

Sarah: Yeah. I mean, a couple of things there. First, I'll say, so I recently bought a target gift card.

Sarah: It was 10%. You could buy gift cards for 10 percent off. So I bought a 500 gift card. It only cost me 450. Great, great financial move, right? Um, and I hope it will be. I haven't spent it yet, but I've done this in the past. Every year they have a day where you can get gift cards for 10 percent off, but I know this from talking to a ton of people, also from seeing myself.

Sarah: Now, if I just think, okay, I got 50 worth of things. I'm going to buy exactly what I would have normally bought. That's 50 saved. Great. That's the story that I'm telling myself. But you know, when I show up at Target and there's something that I didn't plan to buy, but it's under 50. Well, that thing is free.

Sarah: Great. That thing is free now because I saved 50. But I'm also still telling myself that I saved 50. And like, and also I just front loaded all this spending. When I go and do that purchase, that purchase is also kind of free because it's on a gift card. So I'm going to feel more inclined to go shop somewhere else because this Target purchase didn't really happen because that was free.

Sarah: And there's just so many like mind games that we play with ourselves that like, We tell ourselves that we're saving money, but like, we're not really, we're just spending in a different way. So that's one little anecdote on the mind games that even people who think about money constantly, like myself still do.

Sarah: Um, but how do we, 

Jenn: Oh, go ahead. 

Sarah: Yeah. I was going to say also that we, we see these flawed things that our parents do. And we think, okay, I shouldn't do that. That clearly didn't work, and yet we find ourself doing it, and it's really infuriating. It's hard, I mean, when that's what's been modeled for you, you don't have an alternative model.

Sarah: It's like, okay, instead of doing this, I should do this. Even if it's not a great model and you can identify that, if that's what's kind of hardwired and programmed for you, it takes a lot of work to kind of break down that kind of automatic response. So, um, it is very common to do the things that we saw our parents do, even though we know they were not helpful or healthy or productive for them.

Jenn: How do we start identifying these habits for ourselves? Or like, uh, our spending habits overall, but like, how do we even start looking into these? 

Sarah: So I think with the things that we can identify, first identifying it is the first thing. So just seeing, okay, I saw my dad spend money in ways that were not particularly healthy and I can see myself doing that.

Sarah: Seeing that it's happening is a really, you know, important first step. Then I think trying to essentially like, shorten the time window between when we're about to make a purchase or a financial mistake, um, to like when it happens, usually, usually what happens is like, in hindsight, we see like, Ooh, maybe I shouldn't have done that.

Sarah: Um, but the more we're kind of like thinking about it, recognizing the patterns, what tends to initiate them or trigger them, that could be certain situations, like, Getting a pay raise, getting a bonus, getting a tax refund, it could be I tend to make impulsive purchases when I'm on my phone at night, it could be when I'm bored, when I'm feeling insecure about that presentation I have to give at work, suddenly I'm 600 in new work outfits, purchase, you know, whatever, finding out what those triggers are.

Sarah: Probably you won't immediately stop, but you might notice that you did the thing right after you did the thing. It still feels frustrating because it still happened, but like the more we can kind of pay attention to those patterns, it goes from a week later, I realized I did the thing to like the next day I realized I did the thing, then right afterwards, oh damn it, I just did the thing, and then I'm doing the thing, doing, I'm still gonna do it, I'm doing the thing, to like, I Maybe I won't do the thing.

Sarah: Maybe, oh, maybe I'll do half of it. Um, so just kind of like shortening that window and like, or maybe it's every other time I envision it, but not always. But so I think it's really just leaning into or exploring, getting curious what is the pattern, what is the cadence and trying to identify it like before it happens.

Jenn: I, I love that example. And that's something that I've seen with my Amazon purchases, and I feel like that's another one that is like, oh, but it was online so it doesn't count. It really does y'all. And my recycling can tell you that it counts. It has enough boxes. And. It's like almost like as much as my mind tricked myself into saying, Hey, but using a gift card is not using real money.

Jenn: That type of thing. I've had to learn how to, I noticed having the Amazon app on my phone was really easy for me to go purchase things. So I, I have it on the browser, but it's an extra step that makes me get there that I'm like, Okay. And then it was like, okay, I can put things in my cart, but I can't hit checkout.

Jenn: And I can do it. Like, can I wait for it? Can I go to a store for it? Can I, um, like I've, I have more questions for myself that I've had to build. And y'all, I still have an Amazon issue. Like it still happens. It's, it's where It's a lot less and it's a lot less frequent and it's taken a lot of trial and error and the biggest times I see myself having an influx of wanting to spend money is when something else is out of control.

Jenn: Yes, 

Sarah: Figuring out what those patterns are. 

Jenn: So like, um, I have. been trying to stop eating sweets. So sweets are like my go to controllable. I'm like, okay, life is shitty. I can go eat sweets. But when I'm not eating sweets, I'm not like, I'm trying other ways to get myself motivated. So I'm like, But then I'll be like, okay, well, I need X, Y, Z.

Jenn: And it's like, my, my brain power is avoiding sweets. So therefore I can't like, handle, 

Sarah: What Dopamine hit. Can we replace it with a purchase? Yes. 

Jenn: Yeah. And it's, it's identifying those that I, I see it reflected back in even my relationship where it can be like a comment that my partner will make. And it's just like an observation.

Jenn: Like, it's like literally like, Oh, you got something else from Amazon today. Literally 

Sarah: The judgment. He probably I'm going to read into a ton of judgment. 

Jenn: I read into it. And then I'm like all mad at him. I'm like, What? It was for you. Like, and it's like, yes, I end up having that shame and thinking that he has that judgment or not projecting that judgment on him.

Jenn: Um, and that causes a lot of issues. And I see that come up with a lot of things. Like when we talk about future plans of like, there's a lot of. And I don't always see it. It's very frustrating because I'm like, Oh, well, I was kind of an asshole. I probably, you know, love it. And, and so that, that can snowball and it, it causes a lot of issues.

Jenn: So when we're starting to look at these behaviors, how do we start identifying them even within our relationship or start having these conversations? 

Sarah: So I think you mentioned that future conversation. I think A lot of times when we are trying to manage money with a partner or like if we've just like moved in together or like are exploring shared finances, blended finances, there tends to be a lot of focus and fixation on like, how are you spending money right now?

Sarah: What are you doing to sabotage our financial life? Um, and that makes sense. But I think if you focused first on like more big picture long term planning That tends to be a good way to have a more positive conversation And then you can kind of work backwards to trickle down to like and what can we do now?

Sarah: To make sure we get to that point. So That could be as long term as like What's your retirement vision? Which is not a conversation many couples have. We both assume we're going to retire at some point, but we both have very different visions of what that means. Does that mean, you know, tinkering in the garden all day?

Sarah: Or does that mean going on cruises around the world? Like, you might need different income levels for that, or you might just have just the same vision. Different visions. Are we moving to a warmer climate? You know, whatever it might be. Just having those conversations so that you have a future thing that you're working towards.

Sarah: Now, retirement is a long way away for a lot of people. That can be a, a really big step. Um, so if that feels a little too far, too removed, I can't even identify with that future person. Pick something that's a little bit, you know, less far off, whether that's we're thinking about buying a home in the next five years or something like that or starting a family or when our kids are In school and they're not in daycare anymore.

Sarah: What would we want to do with that money? I think having those bigger conversations and then it's like, okay We're really excited about this. We're excited about it together as a team One it kind of reduces a lot of the animosity if we've like identified a shared goal But then instead of me having to say and Why do you, you should bring a lunch to work because when you eat out for lunch every day, it's really like sabotaging our goals.

Sarah: And when I look at your spending, that's the thing that I would nitpick. He might turn around and say, okay, let's see, how could we get there? And he volunteers a totally different expense of his that he's like, yeah, I can. I could do without that and so I think giving people kind of the control to decide for themselves where they'd want to if if cutting is the goal where they would want to do that or adjustments they would want to make.

Sarah: Um, but again, with like a future goal in mind.

Jenn: You mentioned of like the goal being the house, something that you mentioned in a previous conversation is people think about debt in very different ways and feel about debt in very different ways. So going about buying a house could be very different conversations. Yes, based on couples, but then based on individual experiences to get there, can you go in a bit more and give us more details about that?

Sarah: Yeah, so I think debt is, can be a really triggering conversation topic, but I think, I think we all have an assumption about like how debt should play into people's lives and like good debt versus bad debt. And we all have, we kind of assume that our vision of it is correct because we don't talk about it.

Sarah: So we assume that whatever we were raised with or whatever was modeled for us is kind of the standard way. So I. I've talked with many people who have never had any credit card debt, that like a mortgage, maybe student loans are the only acceptable debt, and anything else is bad. If you get into credit card debt, there is some moral failing on your part, and like you would have to be an idiot to have gotten yourself in that situation.

Sarah: That is the way that people's parents talked about debt, so that is how they think about it as an adult, left unchecked. You know, not being exposed to other people's realities. Then there are people whose parents were constantly in credit card debt. Their credit cards were maxed out and that's just how they lived life.

Sarah: And that feels like an inevitable way that you would function as an adult. And there's no moral failing connected to it. It just is what it is. Sure. Would I rather not be in credit card debt? Yes, but like, I can't even fathom what that. Like how, how would one do that? That seems like, do people really do that?

Sarah: That's another way that people are raised and seems totally normal to that person. Unless you have a conversation with your partner about what their feelings on debt were, how their parents talked about debt, you wouldn't probably know kind of what their take on that is. Cause people, you know, don't always disclose their debt status when they're dating.

Sarah: Um, so having those conversations so that you understand that, like, Oh, The idea of getting a mortgage, for me, is like no big deal. That's how one buys a house. They were raised in a, in a, like, if you're familiar with Dave Ramsey, who's super anti debt, if they were receiving that message, like, they may have some strong feelings on taking debt out at all, um, or they may have really strong feelings if you're coming into the relationship with credit card debt and, you know, assume there is some moral failing on your part for allowing yourself to get into that position.

Sarah: Um, so yeah, it's, it's a hot topic for sure. 

Jenn: That, that, um, I appreciate you identifying like the two, two thought processes that are out there and how do people start the conversation of Can like collaborating on it because that that's something that even to another question that I had on. Um, if people are, for example, like if they want to go get married and one partner has a lot of credit card debt, because that's just the way they function.

Jenn: And one is like, debt is the end of the world. There's There's also not only like, okay, we have two different like visions and thought processes, but there's shame associated. In some type of way, um, either like one partner could be like, you having credit card debt is the worst shameful thing in the world.

Jenn: And then, or the, uh, other partner could be like, yo, I'm ashamed because I feel ashamed because of them or vice versa. Like how do people. Come back from that or work through that because there's a lot of goals that are out there. But I think for so many of us, we're just like, nah, brah, I'm just going to be stuck like this for forever.

Jenn: It's never going to get better. 

Sarah: Yeah. So that's, it's a dynamic that I've seen a lot where one partner. Has a lot of debt, either that's what was modeled for them. They hit a rough patch in their early twenties and like debt accumulated. And then once you've accumulated it, it's really hard to get rid of it.

Sarah: Um, especially if you're living in a high cost of living area, if you're earlier, early in your career and just trying to like function as a professional looking human to like afford professional clothes and show up and like, you know, go out with friends, like it, it's not uncommon to accumulate some debt then.

Sarah: And then when you have a debt payment in your budget, or even if you don't have an actual budget, but if it's something that you owe, you're just kind of always behind when you have that debt payment as something that you carry with you. And I think for a lot of people who grew up in a house where like debt, consumer debt, so not talking about student loans, car loans, um.

Sarah: Mortgage, but like primarily credit card debt. If you didn't grow up in a family that had credit card debt, if they talked about it in a way that like it should be avoided at all costs, and you had the familial support, that that was just never something that was like really a huge risk for you. It wasn't like that hard to avoid it based on the income you made, the family support you had, the financial education you had around like how to avoid it, it's sometimes, I think it's hard.

Sarah: For people to understand what it really is like with credit card debt and also how easy it is to fall into that Um, I think for growing up in a house where there was some level of financial education You assume everyone else has that same information But for so many people that just wasn't a conversation that was had so it It's not that crazy to think that at 18, 21, you open a credit card, don't fully understand how it works.

Sarah: And like, yes, you know, you have to pay the money back, but like, you know, we're idiots when we're 18. Like we don't really pay attention to the details and then you accumulate some credit card debt. And then, like I said, you're just kind of like always behind and that just kind of trails with you. And again, if it was normalized for you as a kid, if that is just kind of a thing that A normal adult does to function in the world.

Sarah: You're not seeing it as something that is so extreme that needs to be avoided at all costs. So I think just kind of, if you were the person with credit card debt, to whatever extent you're able to be vulnerable and share, What your journey has been. When did you open your first credit card? Why did you open it?

Sarah: What did you understand or not understand about it? What kind of expenses ended up on there? Was it when you were in between jobs in your early twenties and trying to like fake it until you make it as a young single in the city? Um, was it, you know, just, Understanding what that journey was and just kind of humanizing that story, I think can be really enlightening for the partner who may think that debt is something that you should be ashamed of.

Jenn: Thank you for that. And, and something that came to mind as well was credit card debt can be, uh, to, to echo what you said of like a snowball effect, like it could be something very innocent. Like, you know, you got your first one and then it just snowballs. There's. And other situations that in different economic situations cause different things like there are people, individuals that have hand fall back on, on their, on their family.

Jenn: And that's a privilege that they have being able to have backup where other individuals don't have that. And they might have credit cards or they might overwork a ton. Like there's, there's It's, it's so varying to be able to even imagine and put ourselves in other people's shoes. I will say, even going through this episode, it's like, I don't want to talk about this stuff.

Jenn: It's, but that's the reason I don't want to talk about it, is because we all have so much shame around it. 

Sarah: Mm hmm. 

Jenn: I'm, I'm curious if somebody wants to talk about this with their partner, like you are a financial coach, which yay. What other resources are there out there? Are there, like, if they want to go to somebody local or something like that?

Jenn: Is there, like, if you try to search a financial counselor, like, You're normally directed at least from what I've seen, you go end up going to debt consolidators. And I'm like, bro, that's not going to help it. Like, these are habits like these, this is psychological. Like, these are like things that long term like need to work through with people.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So I identify as, as a financial coach. There's also an accredited financial counselor is kind of the Most official, like there are some like for profit financial coach training programs, which like I'm not knocking them, but the validity of an accredited financial counselor, AFC, those are kind of the gold standard in the somewhere between a therapist and a financial planner, people who need help with budgeting, emotions, spending.

Sarah: Yeah. Getting out of debt. Um, that's kind of the gold standard there. There's also, um, financial therapist. It's a designation of a therapist who is specifically well versed in talking about money. Um, you know, obviously, you can always talk about money with your therapist. From what I've heard, there's quite a range in therapists comfort in talking about money for a lot of them.

Sarah: They've got a lot of their own work, so they may not always be super eager to dive into that. Um, but if there's a lot of the kind of emotional piece, if there's trauma related to it, a financial therapist is probably something to look into, um, and then I think just finding people you can have conversations with and trying to open the door.

Sarah: To friends, partners, loved ones that you feel like might be a safe space. I think finding peers who might be in a similar ish situation tends to be a little bit easier way to kind of, um, tiptoe into that, uh, conversation, you know, if you're really struggling with credit card debt and your friend who has a ton of privilege and has never, you know, You know, seems stressed about money.

Sarah: They may not understand it from quite the same perspective. Um, so finding someone who you suspect may have some similar, um, struggles, pain points, um, may be helpful, um. That being said, people are not always receptive to conversations about money. So just finding ways to like, just kind of open the door a little bit to make it clear that you are open to having these conversations, um, can be, you know, can be a good strategy just to see who is interested in exploring that with you.

Jenn: Thank you. And do you have any recommendations on books or anything like, or other podcast shows that you recommend that people can like? Learn about I like to call them as like, you can touch the conversation without having to like dive in. Yep. 

Sarah: Um, so a couple. Um, now I am blanking on it. The Money Feels is one by two women in Canada.

Sarah: So there are some like Canada specific references, but they definitely talk about a lot of the emotional components. Um, there is one called I want to, or teach me to be, I will teach you to be rich, um, by Ramit Sethi. The name, he has a book, which is also a, it's a great book. He also has a podcast. There are some bits.

Sarah: That are a little like, sometimes I roll my eyes, but like 90 percent of what he says, I'm totally there. So little caveat there. Um, his book is a great just like how to do money from like a basic perspective. Um, I think it's a really good just kind of like, I don't know where to start. That's a great place to start.

Sarah: Um, and in his podcast, he interviews couples and basically just has essentially like a coaching session with them talking about, you know, kind of what their financial struggles are. And his point is like, you don't get access to people's like intimate real conversations about money. So it's a great kind of.

Sarah: Um, dive into, into the conversations that they're having. Um, so those are a few ones that I like. Um, The Psychology of Money is a book by Morgan Housel that, you know, just talks about the psychology of money. That's a great one that I like as well. 

Jenn: Awesome. Thank you. And have we, Is there any questions that you want to bring up that I haven't asked yet?

Sarah: Um, you know, you had mentioned something earlier about like getting access to a little bit more money. And then instead of doing all the things, the paying down the debt, the building a savings, it just goes out the window. And like, unfortunately, that like kind of like self sabotage is is so common. Um, and Yeah, so I just wanted to acknowledge that that is like, unfortunately, very common and I think, I think especially if we grow up in an environment where, you know, money was scarce, there are kind of two different ways that people tend to react to that one, either they become incredibly diligent with saving and they're like hoarding all of the money, you know, They won't spend any of it because they want to make sure that there's always money or they spend it all.

Sarah: And anytime there's money to spend, I'm going to spend it because I don't know when it's coming in again. So it's here now. So I'm going to spend it. So, um, those are the typical ways that people tend to, um, develop coming out of a more financially scarce upbringing. 

Jenn: That's a good call out. And, and thank you.

Jenn: That also puts Verbiage to it as well. And, and I appreciate that because then it's something that I know for myself, I can go research later on. And that's one of the things I do love about this show is I'm like, it, it, it's there just to also like get the conversation started, but also give people resources to like, go take the next step of like, Oh, I do want to find out more.

Jenn: Yeah. Um, and. If you were to give yourself or others out there any words of wisdom, what would it be? 

Sarah: I think leaning into curiosity is so important, both with ourselves and with money or and with a partner. I think, you know, it is a taboo topic. We've kind of developed these habits, coping mechanisms, whatever it is, for a lifetime.

Sarah: And just understanding, like, Or questioning. I wonder why I do that. I wonder why my partner does that. Rather than trying to judge what you or your partner does, but coming at it from curiosity, I think makes it a lot easier to do something productive or helpful from it. 

Jenn: Yay. And how did people reach out to you?

Sarah: So my website is sarahroller. com. That's Sarah with an H. Um, so you can find me there. You can book a free intro session, um, where we can chat and see if what I do is something that you're interested in exploring. You can also sign up for my blog on my website as well. 

Jenn: And last but not least, what is something that you're grateful for?

Sarah: So I have started taking Pickleball classes from my local Parks and Rec. And I feel like pickleball either is a big eye roll or like, yes, I love it. I'm super into it. And I was a big eye roller of it for a while, but recently started taking classes. It's on Thursday mornings, which means it's me, someone who's self employed and can like carve out time in my schedule and a bunch of retired ladies.

Sarah: And it is so fun. And I think I am just really enjoying like, being new at a skill that I am building and learning. And I feel like as an adult, we tend to just do the things that we're good at. We gravitate towards those and we avoid the things that we're not good at. And so I think it's just been really fun and helpful to kind of be in that like learning.

Sarah: I'm not good at this yet mindset. 

Jenn: I love that. And I oddly mine is kind of similar, but also very different. I'm very grateful that my partner understands dog training better than I do. We just took our dogs. They just got back from, uh, going to dog training boarding school. And a lot of training is with repetition.

Jenn: And it's where there's a lot of steps. And I get very, very anxious and overwhelmed. And He's very patient with me. And I'm very grateful for that because for me to have a good relationship with them, I need to be practicing these things. I can't just delete it. So it's been something that I'm like, all right, as a family, we are going to get through this.

Jenn: We will get through this. And I am very grateful for him helping out with that. So 

Sarah: That's awesome. 

Jenn: And thank you again for joining today. We appreciate it. 

Jenn: Bye. 

Sarah: Bye.