S1 E23 Shit2TalkAbout Modern Business Ethics with Brian Asingia
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Jenn Junod
Hey, Brian, thank you for joining. Shit. You don't wanna talk about, please introduce yourself and what shit you wanna talk about today?
Brian Asingia
Sure. Thanks for having me. Brianna Cina, I go by Asina and the shit that I don't want to talk about today is mainly I would say three things. my life's journey and experience. my latest book, Cashless Society 101. And I suppose most importantly, the bigger theme of the book, which is ethics and doing the right thing.
Jenn Junod
Very cool. And let's start with, where are you right now? Where ye yes, I know. Last time we chatted, I believe you're physically in New York. and we'll go into your background but as an author. Are you a full time author? Do you work as well? What, where are you at in life now?
Brian Asingia
Sure. Physically, I'm in New York, but let's talk more about the question that you ask me, which is where I am. I, I suppose in life, I would say I'm a management consultant more on a full time basis. working with different businesses and helping them either optimize their digital like strategy, like helping them add more technology to their business, but also increasingly beginning to, to help businesses optimize for revenue so that they can bring in more money or, or get
funding because one way or the other, some things have to be funded. That's I would say on a day to day basis and, and I would say on average, we, we as a company, we can handle 3 to 10 companies or 3 to 10 accounts a year because we're still a small team. And it does keep me pretty busy, but I like moving from project to project as an author. This is my second book.
My first was The Last Digital Frontier, which primarily focused on the history and future of technology in Africa. So kind of looking at innovation before colonialism, innovation during colonialism and where Africa could go from here. And the latest book, Cashless Society 101. So the first book was came out in 2019. It was self published through our company.
but the second book is coming out this spring and March through New Degree Press, the publisher. And I'm excited most mostly about it because it's mostly a reflection of my own journey. growing up in Uganda and, and kind of having been around corruption, seeing my own dad being arrested almost regularly for corruption in a society that almost normalized taking bribes or, or I would say having unethical business practices.
So I've always wondered what, whether or not it's it's worth it to try to lead the right path in an environment that not does not encourage that. And so it was my own way of looking at my own experience. It was my own way of looking at people around me and asking questions. But more importantly, also looking at specific case studies of businesses like Boeing, Facebook, Apple, talking to a lot of
experts on how they navigate business in life because even though sometimes we try to separate the two, we are often our personal lives, impact our business and vice versa.
Jenn Junod
Definitely, they definitely do impact each other. And thank you for the, the navigation of where you're at now and that so perfectly brought up your own journey. And so you were born in Uganda and how old were you when you moved to the US?
Brian Asingia
I I would say I was 18. So I was born in February. Actually, my birthday is coming up. So I was happy early birthday. Happy, happy. Yeah, thank you. And so I moved here in the summer. I remember actually quite clearly around June 23rd 2006. I was 18 and I was I came as part of an international exchange program. So I was gonna go study at a boarding school in Montezuma, New Mexico, close to the old Las Vegas, which there's a story there because I initially got excited thinking I'm going to
Las Vegas, Nevada. Turns out I was going to a very small town in Montezuma, New Mexico. So I, I did miss out on that New Mexico experience on that Las Vegas experience, but maybe someday I will. and so at 18, I was coming to do a twoyear international high school experience for 11th and 12th grade. they did what is known as the International Baccalaureate or IB program, which is a different type of examination.
I would say maybe as difficult, if not more difficult than the A P kind of exams for those that go to standard high school. And yeah, that really exposed me to a lot of people from all over the world. On average, you had about 200 students from 93 countries across two class years. And it just exposed my world to a lot of more possibilities and allowed me to just understand why things were different, how they could be better, what things were better here and why things could be better
here. So it, it started me thinking that we are not all the same. but it, it doesn't mean we don't have to get along because the first two weeks we spent basically, us trying to correct each other like this is not the right way to eat or this is not the right way you should be doing this. And we realized that was frustrating. What was, you know, we were like, we're gonna be stuck here for two years. Maybe we should focus on what we, we are all enjoying, what can we do together rather than what
is the right way of greeting somebody or cleaning your, your room. And so, the difference is sort of took a back side and we started focusing on what we can learn from each other and support with each other. And I think that ended up working out well, because I'm still in touch with those people that I've stayed in my life.
Jenn Junod
That's beautiful and interesting. We didn't talk about Las Vegas on our intro call and my family actually used to live at one point in Las Vegas, New Mexico. Yeah. So I actually know where that is.
Brian Asingia
And I love, yeah, I love Santa Fe. Go ahead.
Jenn Junod
Yeah, I don't think a lot of people know. So I definitely suggest to those out there, go check it out. The New Mexico Desert is absolutely beautiful. And so is Santa Fe. And now that we kind of have an idea of how you got to the US, how did you bring us back to? Especially with your first book and your experience in, in Uganda?
Because you're talking about colonialism and in, in Africa, as we're talking about that, could you in a, in a brief synopsis, explain what colonialism is for those who may not have, may have heard the word but not know what it means.
Brian Asingia
Yeah. So I think colonialism and, and again, let's be more specific to say, take an American audience for comparison vis a vis Ugandan or African audience. So colonialism, I think is a period and that's what it is. I would say 15 hundreds to one could go up to like 19 sixties. That's when most of the countries became independent. was a period of expansionism.
Let's call it that where the old imperial when we talk of monarchs, for example, the United Kingdom was still under the, the queen Queen Elizabeth really just like America was expanding westward to increase its influence and capture more land and be more suppose, have more of a way to support its citizens. the, the British Empire at that time among obviously a lot of European countries realized that there was a lot of wealth and resources in India and Africa and, and other areas
that in short, rather than them paying a fair price for would be cheap, they thought would be cheaper in the long term for them to just go and conquer these areas so they can control these resources direct from the source.
Jenn Junod
And a as an example for our listeners just to maybe piece it together. Some you mentioned India, definitely parts of Africa, New Zealand is also a place that this has happened. Easter Island. Yeah, Australia. So this is something that I think a lot of Americans specifically probably don't know much about or talk about. So I appreciate the, the back story to get us up to speed.
Brian Asingia
Yeah, and it was, it was purely a resource grab or and you know, and, and you know, if you, if you, if you're for us residents, the, the history is more around having not necessarily colonies, but maybe areas of interest. If you think the Cuba, the, the sugar coming from Cuba and, and, and sort of the Panama Canal kind of conflict. That's the same kind of legacy of trying to have an invested interest in an area because of a resource, it could be sugar, it could be oil with Iraq and other
areas even though people may think of that differently that you then deem it necessary to have either a political military presence or in some cases, It could be more of a diplomatic presence where you can have a reg and somebody who reports back to you. So maybe you're not ruling directly. But it is clear that there is tribute or some kind of tax system where the local government can then pay in terms of resources or money back to you as the ruling authority.
So I think that practice started with, again, it didn't just start with Europeans. They had started at by the 15 hundreds, you know, Africans had already been trading amongst themselves. They had been trading with Arabs and, and Indians who would sail the Indian Ocean on, on large ships, take mostly bring spices and then take other resources back.
And so the Indian trade was really the big area of opportunity. And at that point, I think England or, or British Empire had a large navy or was continually improving its navy. And so saw an opportunity to one get rid of piracy, which was the situation where these people that did not answer to any sovereignty or government had large ships on the sea and would just steal goods and raid other ships and, and just take commodities without paying any taxes or anything.
So in under the guise of providing order on the waters and and of course, bringing civilization to this African or, or, or Indian areas, they then wanted to provide this order both socially but also for economic purposes on, on the water or for through the navy, like which was a military operation. With the ultimate goal, of course, of, of again, securing and managing these trade routes and, and, and in and by extension, be in charge of the business that comes through these areas.
So a lot of a quick example of some of the things that were of interest in Africa would have been obviously gold. There was a lot of iron, a lot of metals, mineral, sort of wealth, cotton. That's because a lot of the land was rich. And so there was a lot of agriculture farming from cocoa in, in Ghana, West Africa, to tea in Kenya, to coffee in Uganda and other areas that was grown purely for export purposes.
So I call that the the extraction phase of innovation because if they built a railway, most of the time, the sole purpose was to take resources out of a country out of a continent as opposed to like in Japan where they might just build a railway so villagers can get to school on time. So it becomes a different application of technology or innovation where for the beneficiary, it's still helping them like it's still helping the British government get its resources.
But for the local community, they are kind of not necessarily thought of as part of the design process for infrastructure or for transportation and other things. So for me, that's why the history of it is somewhat important because we need to be able to have a different way of thinking. About how infrastructure is designed, moving forward, how technology is designed forward, moving forward so that it's not just about taking from one community to
benefit another community, but really more of an exchange. And, and that's what I I the term inclusive innovation kind of comes from there where the core theme is about access.
Brian Asingia, Jenn Junod
Like how do you make sure they, the communities that are actually creating and using these things can core be involved in building and designing solutions and ultimately benefit from them and to take a pause there really quick because we just went through a lot and II, I do wanna call out something for our listeners and for myself is specifically when people come on this podcast, they're normally open to me just asking them whatever random questions I throw their way.
Jenn Junod
I, I do wanna take a pause and say, for example, not everyone from, from Uganda is gonna have this experience and want to talk about all of this. I, I, I want to say that in and there is such an intellectual burden put on individuals when we first meet them or curiosity that we just are like you're from Uganda, you can teach me everything about Uganda.
And I, I do wanna take a pause there for that because thank you for taking the time to teach us all this. And also as behind the scenes, I would tease you on being an academic because you are so intellectual and I love it. I, I appreciate you letting me ask all the random questions now to recap what we just went through. we spoke about colonialism and for example, how, how the UK would take over a country to be able to take its goods and the inclusive innovation is
to make it. So that way it's not just taking from that country to give to back to the UK. It can be something that can be synergetic where it could benefit the symbiotic. Yeah.
Brian Asingia
Yeah. you know, I'll, I'll quickly summarize it and, and the way I extend that conversation in my second vocational society is to then give an example of a country that's India that's managed to change that narrative. So India now says the government says number one, as a foreign company say you're a company from the US or, or Europe, you can now it's a very impossible to have 100% ownership of a company in India.
That's number one. So that means local ownership. It means a certain percentage of the owners of any company operating in India will actually be Indians will actually be local and they will benefit from that success of that company. Number two, you cannot be fully operating as a foreign company in India. You actually have to partner with an Indian company as a foreign company.
So Amazon cannot directly have a business in India. They have to pay or contract an Indian company to do. the very thing that Amazon wants to do in India. So when Amazon is producing all these great TV shows in India, it does not do it as Amazon, it actually hires Indian companies to do that work, which obviously creates jobs. When we compare that to the colonial example that we were looking at the British brought in Indians to build the railroad when there were already Africans in
Africa. And so this concept of we call it technology transfer where you're taking something that already works in one area and just taking it as is to another area without localizing it or making it work for the local people has very big negative consequences. And so I think this new inclusive way of doing innovation, localizing it, making sure it works for the local people in terms of let them be the ones creating the, the railway or filming the, the the TV shows or delivering the
packages. If it's an Amazon kind of example, you get to have them be a part of that local economy, and, and that gives them jobs, they can now have money to send their kids to school. and more than anything, actually, as they make money, they become customers of these other companies. So I think it's a very easy way to lift people out of poverty because it's focused on jobs and with jobs comes taxation and, and sort of improved, living standards
Jenn Junod
and that is so cool to, to see that a country is taking ownership of that and, and taking the, you could say their power back in the fact of I, I use this as a example between relationships of two people need to be able to put into the love box. And if one person always takes and the other person always gives, that's gonna burn that one person
out and cause resentment. And while in the idea of India, you know, they were able to create that boundary and, and make a, a solution from past trauma that is, that is so cool.
Brian Asingia
It, it's really a powerful example to say we know our value and that's actually really quickly, it's part of the other concept. Let me now try to define cashless society at least what it means for me.
Jenn Junod
Yes, I was just gonna be asking you that.
Brian Asingia
So I love, I love your mug. So I have 22 definitions. There one is the technical one or the academic one. And it's been around since the sixties which says the Cashless Society will be the society that prefers electronic transactions. So it means we're gonna rely on computers to do the counting, to count the money to send the money for you to visit your doctor using your phone instead of physically going to the hospital.
So it's, it's not just about cash, it's anything that uses technology or electronic kind of a transaction. That's what the cash society refers to. So I would argue that for some areas like filing your taxes online, like ordering your your Starbucks coffee online, is actually an example of a cashless experience or contactless as we're calling it in the COVID era.
And that's one definition. The second is more of a personal definition that I added, which is more philosophical, which means that things have value before you tie them to fiat or cash or fiat means like government currency tradition, like a dollar or a euro or a pound or Japanese yen. So the example we're looking at in India, it's India saying, OK, we know we have a lot of smart people.
You can no longer just hire them and pay them less. You can no longer use their resources and not pay them what you would be paying in a fair market. So the value then is there whether or not you pay them is what the government is saying it's up to you to now start paying them their fair wage. We can bring that same example to maybe us, labor laws where the living wage versus minimum wage is still a debate to say, are people being paid enough to afford to live in the areas they live in?
the answer is no. And, and so one could argue that the work that people are doing is actually worth more than what they're being paid because in an ideal sense, they should be able to afford to live otherwise. What's the point of working? Right? So at a bare minimum before we even think numbers, we walk, so we can afford to live. It's not like we live to walk.
I I would hope it's the other way around, right? So, so that's where it's coming from. But even beyond this human needs or values, I'm saying if you look at as Africa as a continent, for example, with so many countries that there's value in their resources even before the west says, we wanna take them for $0 or we'll take them for nothing because we've created a war there, right?
That you can still be proud that you have land, you can still be proud that you own a house. You can still be proud that you go to school because whether or not somebody is paying you a dollar for that, you own it and it's yours and it's worth something. so I think I call it the external validation. Whenever we wait for other people, you talked about relationships.
If you're always waiting for other people to tell you whether or not your relationship is doing good, it's likely not gonna survive. Right? Because you don't have the confidence yourself to know whether or not you like the person or whether or not it's a good relationship. So I think even for countries and, and governments and citizens, that relationship between people, between governments, between companies, sometimes we can appreciate a good thing before we even know how
much it costs. Right. And, and that's kind of the concept of cashless of like put the money aside and think about the human values that make you think this thing is important. And another quick example is health health care since we're in a COVID-19 situation. Now, you know, a lot of people I would hope would agree that you can't put a price on the life of someone.
So somebody needs an insulin vaccine. Should we really, you know, have such high prices so that people can't afford to stay alive? Or can we say, you know, when it comes to matters of life and death, maybe it should be more than who can afford to stay alive as a society. Maybe that's what we decide is important. So I think the cashless part that's more philosophical tries to bring in these questions of like what does it even mean to to walk, to live a worthy life to, to do good in the world?
You know, is it a life and mother a life and death situation? Does it, is, should you only care then otherwise all is well or should we, we even care in the little moments like you mentioned, when you are in a relationship with your partner, in a family, in a school. And I argue that sometimes it's in the little moments where it's actually very important to, to be
more human and, and, and think about his values and not just the money. So I know I went on for a while, but I wanted to make sure I offered some clear examples that you bring to.
Jenn Junod
You definitely did. And thank you for the definition and, and also your added definition. I in, in my own personal experience, I can see how, at least from my understanding how Cashless society has started to change. with, we'll say millennials of we, a lot of millennials would rather have a good work culture instead of a high salary.
They would rather be doing good in the world instead of a high salary, make an impact instead of income yet. And, and that is an absolutely beautiful thing. And I'm, I'm so grateful that it is changing and, and the impact is being made yet.
Brian Asingia, Jenn Junod
I feel like that is how to say it it's, it's fixing the middle of, yeah, it's like it's in the middle of a, yeah, but we're not fixing the core of the problem.
Brian Asingia
Yeah, treating a symptom, I think. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah.
Jenn Junod
And that's a great way of saying it. We're treating the symptom and it's great to see that the generations are changing yet to your point of. We have so many that are, that are not making a living wage and are so you have that aspect and also our older generation and as we all age will not be getting the care that we need. And I, I would love to dive in more to find out more about your book on how to start thinking about this on an ethical basis.
Because that is it as being someone in a start up and having to think budget and also people and leadership and they, it is can become very, very clouded when you think about business versus humans. And how do you bring ethics?
Brian Asingia
Yeah. How do we bring the two together? I think they, I'll start with how the book ends and then I'll go into the beginning or, or, or the four main themes in the book. So the two important arguments because then my editor and publisher were like, you have to find a way to, to, to, you know, concretely say what it is you were trying to say. And I'm like, but I thought I have and I'm like, no, you have to say it again.
So the two main arguments I make at the end of the book are one that individual agency like the ability for you as an individual to make the right decision or, or try to do what you think is right is very, very important. not just in a Western society like America, but also in communal societies like Africa, Asia and Latin America, your decision as an individual impacts the community.
And, and that may go from controversial things like vaccination to very simple things like obviously, if you're part of a football team, you know, how your individual contribution can lead to the success of a team. And likewise, that applies to a company. So I think individual agency or decision making and action in a time when we feel like as individuals, corporations are too powerful, governments are too powerful, we can't do anything.
I think that's the one thing I've come to admire about America is is that individualism is fostered and celebrated so that you never feel like you're incapable of doing something. So that's a powerful thing that we should never forget even when you're in a tough situation because that's when you're gonna need to rely on your own beliefs. The second argument is the need or the power of collaboration.
And this is especially more important for governments, for businesses to, you know, to stop thinking, if you think of China us that they can control the world alone, which is really the, the, the the argument that's going on now, right? You know, China wants one version of the internet, the US wants another version. But rather that if they actually work together as they did by, you know, with space technology, sending people into space, a lot of governments actually
collaborated to make that happen. It's if the governments or institutions collaborate, we the people actually benefit tremendously from that collaboration. Another example could be the internet, you know, before we lose it because we might, if China goes one way in the US, another way it would have a divided internet, we can just share information all over the world without a lot of gates or limits.
So they then really quickly the four main things, you know, I did mention like the individual agency being based on values. And you know, the one thing I couldn't resolve and I'm happy to have a conversation with you on this. So try to remember this is what values do we share as human beings? We have the UN Declaration of Human Rights, we have all these things.
But are they really if, can you tell me 123 values that we really share that we could use to make decisions at work that we could use to design technology that is smarter than us that can then drive us to work. That's a question I'm here to answer. But let me quickly end by saying the four themes, you know, one is identity, you know, when you're in a company or in a country, it doesn't matter at school, your identity matters.
And I refer to digital identity, but I also refer to your culture and your language. It's your sense of belonging, that's your core. The second is ownership, your ideas, but also the traditional ownership of like the stocks and what's in your bank account and the deed and that you of the land that your family left you, you own those things and they are just as important, money or no money.
The third is trust. We talked about relationships before our relationship, connection. It kind of means the same to me. Trust is important. You have to trust the other person. But even if you don't trust the other person, how can you be able to do business with them? And sometimes the banks come in to provide that trust. Sometimes the government comes in to provide that trust.
But I think more and more we don't trust governments more and more, we don't trust banks. So trust is gonna be more important at work. And also in the technologies we create. And then the last thing is obviously scale, you know, scale means like how many, how big can this thing be? How many people can use it? and I think for it also comes down to access when you know, we started the conversation on local people being able to participate in an economy.
So for me, scale means access means, and I'll end with this example when you think of like banking with your phone, not everybody in Africa has access to a bank account. Not everybody in India has access to a bank account, but people can now send money on their phone to their relatives. Pay, do shopping for their kids at school, using their phone, just a simple text message.
They don't even need the internet. So financial literacy and knowing about economics and banking and budgeting all of a sudden can be understood by everybody in a very simple way without even the existence of the bank. So when you ask the question around the workplace, I think it has to come back to what are the values of the company?
What are the values of you as an individual cause that's the lens that will guide you in the decisions you make and sometimes not the the rules that hr or, or legal has written even though they are important. But there's such a thing called a dilemma where you sometimes don't know what's the right or wrong thing, wrong thing to do.
Jenn Junod
And that's when your values come in and, and that sets up perfectly to starting at the end of the book and also questions about the, the four pillars of when I understand the individual and identity there. Yeah, that yet I feel like at least for myself, I have this experience being able to fully understand individual agency for myself and then being able to go collaborate. Because if, if, when I didn't know what my own agency was, it's very, very difficult to collaborate.
And because there's in my mind, there's a difference between to collaborate is to share your values, to disagree, to really have a healthy discussion. And if you, it's like, if you don't know whose self is, it makes it very difficult to be a group. And I'm curious, does your book go into in a bit more detail of how someone built that up or do you have resources to show that as an individual?
Brian Asingia
So I think one of the things I set out to do as a book is I use my own personal experience as the example. A and that's one way to look at me as a lens to say, well, this is how he did this. I talked to other people that have dealt with more complex things and how they bring themselves into the workplace. You know, one quick story is Doctor Jose more who's a Latin American.
Well, actually is American citizen but is, is, is, is is Hispanic and he, he's worked for NASA. He's advised the White House he's worked for the borrowing company, they do this smart, the future of transport where they, they're gonna dig these big tunnels and just create these vacuums for the, yeah, the, the the cuts to just so you can go straight from New York to like San Francisco in like a very short time anyway.
But he realized like for him, his, his purpose after being in this innovation space for a long time was to get more people like him, you know, more black and brown people to be excited about science to be excited about technology. And so his biggest achievement to date in his own words is starting his own company now called Ad Astra Media, where they use NASA images.
And they actually partner with NASA to use NASA images and icons and create these beautiful animations featuring just, you know, black and brown kids. So they can also get to see themselves in space and be excited about technology. And, and that's just one way of somebody that is an academic has phd S reaching below and saying, you know, for the next generation, they may not necessarily understand my phd research.
But if I created an animation, if I created a doctor character that takes them on an adventure, maybe that will help them awaken their interest and curiosity. So to bring it back to the question, you asked, how does one find that, that that voice? Is it starts with asking, being comfortable asking and, and that's something I, I just reiterate throughout the book.
often we are told that if you ask too many questions, right? You're causing trouble. And I say, let's, let's all cause trouble, let's just cause trouble because to me that's the kind of trouble that I like. So I've always been, as I'm, I'm curious, as you notice from the start of a conversation from our conversation, you just ask when you don't know.
And if you don't ask Google, Google doesn't know everything. But if you don't wanna ask a human being, ask Google, you'll have at least a place to start, but more than anything look inward too and start asking yourself, what do I care about? What are my values? You know, what is my moral campus? Because you have to know that and believe it for yourself before you go work for an organization and especially for millennials or younger people.
personally, I struggled being in the finance industry. It's stereotypically known for greed, stereotypically known for just being very aggressive. I grew up as a shy kid. So I'm like, OK, we're gonna have to adapt and manage. But in the end, I realized, you know, maybe I don't have to change so much, right? Maybe I can focus on the path that I've come to like, which is that business or creating jobs can change communities.
Now, when you create a business in the community, people have jobs, people can send their kids to school. So I didn't necessarily have to change the sector of the industry. I just have to change why I'm doing it.
Brian Asingia, Jenn Junod
And the moment I made it more about the human lens or, or changing communities and creating jobs and communities, I can do that the rest of my life and I would never feel bored and, and that is definitely relatable in the fact that I was in was in sales for over 12 years.
Jenn Junod
Sales is not my thing whatsoever. I can sell. But that was never my goal. All I wanted to do was to talk to people to ask my gazillion million questions that yes, I have always been known as a troublemaker and it was really to go and let them know, hey, I got to know you as a human and we have things that can help you yet.
It's ok if you don't get it because it's giving them that agency, not a fear, not a, like a con, it is giving someone that agency and just being able to connect to them as a human. And I, I love that you were able to frame that differently for yourself.
Brian Asingia
Yeah. And I think it's thanks to people like you, like a part of the reason whenever I'm on great podcasts, like, well, we're having a conversation like we are now, it's really the safest way to even do an interview because if it's so structured inmates scare some people that are not good at public speaking. And, and so when it's a safe space where you can actually exchange ideas and have a conversation, I always leave thinking, oh my God, that was just wonderful, you know, to, to
enjoy being interviewed, to enjoy sharing about myself in a way that maybe sometimes feel vulnerable or maybe sometimes you just like, you know, you have what is called imposter syndrome. Do I am I even expert enough to talk? You know, so really quickly, I think the other example I've seen over time is I, I've been part of the reason I wrote my first book about Africa was I see a lot of let's just say non African experts on Africa, you know, somebody visited Africa for one week now,
they know everything about Africa. But as somebody who grew up there, somebody who learned all there is to learn about Africa maybe isn't considered an expert in Africa. But because somebody is a foreigner and they visited for a month, they get to say on their resume, they visited Africa now they know it. So for me, it was a way of like, you know, maybe for that percentage of people that may really want to know about Africa from somebody that's been there that's lived there.
I will write my own, I will have my own voice. I'll add my own voice to the conversation. And so there was validation that came from that book where people read it and, and said, wow, like, you know, it was eye opening. I read things, I didn't know. Like I, I ended up being invited to Howard University in DC, which is a historically black university.
And even for me, that was again, as an African being able to go to a university that historically had educated African Americans in the US. It was a huge moment for me of, of, of bridging that divide and, and being able to connect with them academically and socially and it felt like a coming home of some sorts for me. So I think I've seen firsthand how, you know, following your own curiosity and slowly developing your own voice can both open doors, but literally bring new
opportunities and put you in a place where you never thought you could be only because you asked, only because you decided to write to a friend or just step out of your comfort zone. And so the moment you know what matters to you and you start pursuing it, things that happen and you find your tribe that then supports you. Yeah.
Jenn Junod
And, and a I, I can only imagine how magical that was being a part of that university academically and socially and that feeling of coming home that when you find your tribe, now, I know for so many years, I struggled to find my tribe. I honestly didn't know if it was even possible because I, no matter when I met someone, I always put them above me, I put them on a pedestal and it didn't matter matter what walk of life or, if they had a degree, no degree how much they made.
I, I always put myself as less than, because I really struggled with my own worth. And I mentioned that because it took me so long to realize even as a high school dropout, I'm worthy. Even though, you know, I was a self-harm when I was in high school, I'm still worthy. And it's, it's magical to Exactly to your point. When you find your voice, it really opens up opportunities to when you, you go towards your goals because I know that there's other people that have been through similar
experiences and it's important for them to share their stories too. It's not a competition because others may relate to them better. And if they do that's wonderful because we all can make a difference in the world and to really bring it back around when you find your own values, your own voice that impacts your
community, that impacts your, your, to be able to collaborate, that impacts, to be able to in businesses and government and really ties it back into India, knowing their worth.
Brian Asingia
Exactly. Yeah. And, and, and sometimes it takes I'm not saying it's easy to, to step up and find that voice. It's a step by step process. It's a lifelong process, you know, and you're always learning and improving. And so, I think partly that's what I also like about maybe writing or books. It's like a conversation. It's like, oh, since I can only have this conversation with you right now, a podcast is a way to share that conversation with more people, just like a book is a way to have
my own thoughts and my own ideas or conversations I've had with other people with a lot more people through a medium of a book. And so it, it's kind of a by embracing these means of like, OK, maybe I don't have a TV network, maybe I don't have, but there's always these other tools that can then amplify your voice. even sharing your idea with a friend.
It's often amazing if we go back to that idea of vulnerability and, and kind of not knowing where to start. It's always amazing how when you start to maybe believe in yourself and you start to speak up for yourself. that all of a sudden other people that were in your situation start looking at you for guidance. So you're never alone, even when you think you're alone.
That's what I to me, that agency conversation is all about. It's like we might feel powerless, we might feel ineffective as individuals. Yet, it's when an individual does something that other people notice and start to care and start to support. And so maybe if all you can do is be the person that starts this spark. You don't have to be the one that carries it to the physic because sometimes it's a lot of work.
Yeah. But, but you could do that. You could be the first person to stand up and say this doesn't, doesn't feel right. I don't feel like I wanna do this. and maybe other people will see it, you know, and, and, and it doesn't have to always be a public result. Like, oh, well, how much did you get paid for not doing that thing? You know, that shouldn't be the way it should be some kind of internal reward that you've decided yourself based on your values.
this is the red line for you and that's gonna vary for each of us, depending on the circumstances we're in. But when you finally do, even in small circumstances, it does matter because they can prepare you to then be able to say no to a much bigger thing.
Brian Asingia, Jenn Junod
when you wouldn't have trusted yourself in the first place, agreed 100%.
Jenn Junod
And I know that we've gone through a lot today. And did we miss anything that you specifically wanted to go over today?
Brian Asingia
Yeah. I would say that maybe the part that we missed, let's say is the role of government.
Jenn Junod
Oh, do tell what is the role of government?
Brian Asingia
I said the role of government in a society is is both to provide guidance, kind of be the adult in the room saying is this robot going to kill us? Is this robot really taking our jobs? Sometimes they are because they are robots flipping hamburgers now. But I think it's more importantly that we don't fear technology that we look at it as a resource, as a tool being here to help us, you know, just like you use your car to get to work or to go shopping. Technology is gonna help us do the things
we like doing better. However, whenever there's problems, we should look inward back to ourselves and government can help us have those conversations with ourselves, with our communities in a civilized manner, hopefully not through guns or violence. And I think that's the fundamental role for government to provide safe spaces for public debate and conversation around how best to create and use technology.
Jenn Junod
Is there someone at somewhere that you would suggest for people to look more into understanding government, especially with the example of them being the adult in the room because with that example, specifically, it, it does feel like it can be a lost cause knowing that as an individual with agency, how where to go to collaborate.
Brian Asingia
Yeah. So I think we all have a role to play, right. Government has a role and there will always be a role for government. That's why we pay our taxes otherwise we would all do it ourselves. Right. And so what's more important? And I know because, I think growing up in Uganda, we weren't encouraged to participate in politics or know about politics because it's a very dangerous space to be in.
I find myself in my thirties fascinated by politics and understanding, you know, what policymakers, you know, who make rules on how, what's the safe speed for driving. What's it does actually impact business and communities. And so you can't just ignore the rulemaking side of, of society because after all government is made of people from your very own communities, at least in a democracy.
So that's why it becomes important. You can be involved by voting for someone you can be involved by discussing, can be involved as a journalist, sharing ideas. But there's a lot of ways to so government to me means issues that impact our community, which brings us back to values and the things we care about. What do we care about? On one of the podcasts, somebody asked me, what advice do you have to?
A five year old? I said they should be comfortable asking questions and I would wanna know what kind of world they wish to see as a five year old so that it's not one sided. I don't wanna just tell them what to do. I also wanna know what they would like to see you do. And I think it's that level of exchange of like the government can do something for us.
But because we are part of government, we help create government just like we help create technology, we can tell government. I don't like that. Google Tracks everywhere I go. I don't like that Facebook recommends advertisements because of something I said when my phone was turned up, you know, in Europe, these are big concerns that are being investigated and looked at.
And so that's, to me is what I mean, like, you know, where can people go start with your own home, your own community, your own school. It doesn't have, you know, we don't have to change the world ourselves, but we can change ourselves and our families and our communities.
Brian Asingia, Jenn Junod
If we start with ourselves and collaborate, I, you said that so wonderfully thank you.
Jenn Junod
And before we wrap up, what words of wisdom would you give the audience and how do they reach out to you and read your book?
Brian Asingia
Sure. Lots of wisdom. I like threes. So number one, just keep asking questions and having conversations with each other, especially in this time where we haven't seeing each other for a while. A lot of people are staying home, a lot of people for health reasons and otherwise it's important to keep talking to each other. So we don't become strangers even if we're living right next to each other or across the stage from each other.
So that's important to, to continue to have dialogue and conversation. I think number two, let's bring it back to government. Elections are coming up in 2020. So I suppose, you know, government is for the people, so be curious about it. Ask yourself, you know, what has my city done for me lately and read the local newspaper if you can once in a while because it will start giving you some insights on what's going on in your own backyard.
I would say lastly, I'll just end on the individual agency part, you matter, your voice matters regardless of who you are, where you are and forget maybe what you've been told and start owning that voice that being hard because you have something to say and to contribute, even though you might have been silenced and, and that means use whatever ways, you know, how to be hard.
You could be an artist, you could be a painter, you could be a technology person, put your mark on the world and all these secret, fun innovative ways, you know how and trust me, there will be people listening and there will be people just ready to acknowledge that. And it's not always talking, there's many ways to express yourself.
So let your voice be heard. And as far as where people can find me, it's Brian messinger.com. B, Ria L A si Ngi a.com. And the hash the social media handle is the same at Brena Sinja Pro's Instagram Twitter. So looking forward to seeing you on the website where you can get a free copy of the new book for the next 30 days, I think.
Jenn Junod
Yeah. And very, very last question. What is something that you're grateful for?
Brian Asingia
I would say, I'm grateful for my mother for having introduced me to books and the love of reading. She's an English teacher almost retiring. And I think she just ned my curiosity and allowed me to see places before I ever visited them. So I got to read about the world before I saw the world and I'm forever grateful for that.
Jenn Junod
Oh, I love that. And I, I would say, it's similar lines of I am just grateful for curiosity. It is. There's so many wonders of the world and the unquenchable thirst of curiosity is, it's just so exciting. There's, there's so much to learn and so much to see and so much to do that.
Brian Asingia, Jenn Junod
It's beautiful how we learn and adapt and you don't have.
Brian Asingia
It's ok not to know everything.
Jenn Junod
Yes. Yes. All the Googling in the world will not solve that. Well, thank you. Thank you for being on the show. We appreciate it.
Brian Asingia
Thank you for having me.
We appreciate you listening to the episode, please like follow and share on our social media at Shit2TalkAbout. That is shit. The number two talk about stay tuned on Wednesdays and Fridays for new episodes. This episode was made possible by production manager, Tom Nan, business manager, Bill Powell and your host J.
