Finding Purpose in Sobriety is Shit2TalkAbout S3 EP 6

“I started the transition from victim to taking responsibility for my actions. Ownership for what the things I’ve done in the past. ”

— Todd Libby

Transcript

Jenn: Hello. Hello, beautiful humans. Welcome to an episode of shit. You don't want to talk about. I'm your host, Jen Tenaud, and this is episode two of shit to talk about recovery. I know I'm giving a little bit away. I normally say, who are you and what's the shit you want to talk about, but it's episode two. So it is about recovery and I'm excited because last time we talked more about life before recovery and how leading to the path.

Jenn: Of recovery, but Todd, who are you and what? Do you, how are you feeling since last, last, last episode? See if I can talk last episode. 

Todd: Hi, Jen. Um, thanks for having me back. Uh, I am Todd Libby. I am a senior web developer, accessibility engineer. Um, I originally came on to talk about, uh, recovery and that recovery was the shit I wanted to talk about. So I'm glad we get to continue the conversation. 

Jenn: Thank you. And how are you feeling after we recorded the first episode? 

Todd: The the first episode was great. Um, made me feel good. I left knowing that, you know, I had a lot to, um, you know, I had a lot to say. I, and you know, if you ask anybody that knows me real well, I have a lot to say a lot of the time.

Todd: So, but, um, no, I felt great. And yeah, I've been looking forward to continuing the conversation. 

Jenn: I thank you for that. And I'm glad there's, there's something that I'm, I'm curious if you got this. I know that I, uh, tend to get this from time to time talking about these deep talk topics of, uh, vulnerability, hangover of like sharing so much of yourself, um, and experience that you don't always share with a lot of people or that, you know, it's still hits close to home.

Jenn: Did you experience any of that after our first episode?

Todd: No, I don't. I didn't. And, um, usually what happens, uh, because I have been speaking about it in certain places in certain spaces for so long is, um, I share what I need to share. And, um, You know, I, I look back at, well, what could I have said that would have made it better, but it all boils down to, uh, when I have that opportunity to share, um, my experience.

Todd: It gets me out of my head and, uh, I feel so much better going forward the rest of the day that, you know, um, hopefully that, you know, if it helps one person, great. Um, if one person hears it and gives them a little bit of hope and strength, you know, that's great too. But I don't experience any hangover. I do experience, I will say this, I do experience when in social circles, when people ask me, um, sometimes I'm like, oh, did I share a little too much?

Todd: And it's like, you know what, if I feel good after the conversation, I, I didn't overshare or I didn't share too much, so. 

Jenn: I like that. That's a good way of explaining it and it, it, we, we did go through a lot and I felt like something that I really got about out of last week was talking about life before recovery because we, we talked about that there's a, you know, a lot of times the first step is the hardest step and.

Jenn: Something that was, we, we touched on last week yet where I kept coming back to after recording our first episode a few weeks ago was that what happens and how did you deal with like, when you messed up when any of us mess up, not you specifically, but you as the general, um, because you talked about that a bit, that there was a time that you had to restart and dealing with not only having to.

Jenn: Restart, but also not having the shame that so many of us feel stopping you. 

Todd: Yeah. Um, the shame is going to come. I don't think I've ever heard anybody say, well, I fell off, you know, I fell off the wagon. I got back up, got back on and you know, I felt fine. I've, I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that in, in any kind of recovery, not just, you know, the, the recovery that I've gone through.

Todd: Um, I think there is a, there is this period where you're feeling shame. you know, no matter what, if it's recovering from, you know, an injury and you do something silly and you, you know, you re injure yourself, you know, I've done that myself and I've, you know, been like, Oh, you know what, I should have just like, I don't know, stayed in bed and this wouldn't have happened.

Todd: It, the shame comes. So, um, the way to shake that is to just, for me anyways, is to, was to just, uh, you know, Buckle down and do the work that I needed to do to say to myself, you know, you can do this. You, you strung together, you know, 24 hours for around a year. And that's a big accomplishment because normally I couldn't even get a day together or a week together in a row.

Todd: So I used it as motivation, um, to not only do better, but do better than I did yesterday. Which was the big thing. I saw that quote, um, do better than you did yesterday. And that's always stuck with me. Um, one of those quotes that just, I guess, fueled the fire. And here I am, you know, a decade later. still going, still talking about this and getting back into it was even harder than the first time because I had that shame, right?

Todd: And it's like, I, I sit down with the, with the gentleman that was then my sponsor and I said, I just didn't take this seriously. And we did the work that I needed to do. So, um, I don't know if that answers the question. 

Jenn: I think it does. And, um, just so get everybody on the same page. When we talk about shame, I did a quick Google of, uh, shame, a, it's a noun of, um, a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior.

Jenn: And I think that's a good way of explaining it. And also, um, in, in case anybody is new to, uh, hearing about shame and that type of work, y'all go Google Brene Brown and shame. She has done a ton of work on it. Like if you want to learn more and I don't want to derail her entire conversation on it. She is definitely somebody that I've learned a lot from on, um, talking about shame and recovering from it.

Jenn: I. I do want to dig a little deeper on something that you said, Todd, on, um, doing the work and getting out of your head, using it as a piece to fuel you to get out of your head. You mentioned in one of our previous calls and a bit on the last episode of, there's times where even today that you're traveling, um, or you're with colleagues or you're you know, family events are at a restaurant and people are drinking of how do you get out of your head when that's happening and, and taking care of yourself?

Todd: Well, it's a number of different ways to approach it. It's, I guess a case by case. instance. And, um,

Todd: it all depends upon how centered I am with myself. And I know that's kind of sounds like a new wave, you know, crystals and stuff, uh, approach, but if I'm feeling right sized, then I can probably sit in a restaurant or, you know, even a restaurant that has this, you know, you see him a lot now with these huge bars.

Todd: And I can not pay attention to what's going on around me. I can pay attention to the conversation at the table. Okay. Um, does it work all the time? No. Um, I would have to, especially early on tell myself I can't be in that situation. I have no right to be in, you know, um, a bar. I have no right to be near a bar.

Todd: Um, I had that right taken away because I drink to excess and Yeah, I even go further than excess if you know that's possible and which it was. Um, so I would either, you know, not get myself into the situation, excuse myself from the situation because I've been at after parties and I've been like, you know what?

Todd: You know, it's that time I can recognize that time where I have to go. Okay. I need to go. I need to go back to the hotel or wherever. Um, luckily for me, I haven't been in situations where, um, it's gotten out of hand to the point where, um, it's gotten to be for me, uncomfortable. As far as going over a certain line where I've ordered a drink or picked up a drink.

Todd: Um, and you know, I have a lot of gratitude in that I have people around me that know the situation and maybe when they listen to this, they'll know a little bit more that they are instrumental in. Um, Saying, you know what we like, we like you now, we probably wouldn't want to see the old you and which is true.

Todd: Um, so

Todd: when, when dealing with a situation like that, when I'm starting to get into my own head, I have to talk about it, I have to make a phone call. I have to text somebody. Um, I have people I can do that with too. Um, I can call my partner. I could text my partner and say, you know, and I have before where I'm been like, this is not the scene for me.

Todd: I'm going back to the hotel. I will call you when I get there. Um, so I have enough time accrued where I believe that. It doesn't cross my mind. I don't think about it as much as I used to, but the thoughts are still there. And when I catch myself glancing over and going, Hey, you know, that, you know, that bottle over there with that green stuff in it, I wonder what that's all about.

Todd: And that's when I got to start, um, putting my plan of action in place as to not, uh, fall back into those old habits. 

Jenn: Thank you for that. Uh,

Jenn: you mentioning and, and this. You're doing really good teeing yourself up for the next questions. They like are, are leading into them very well. Thank you. Uh, this one's going to be a bit of an overlapping one. Um, Also because I also travel for work and I have ways that I try to get myself out of situations if I need to protect my energy and that's a big thing for me is I'm really bad about being.

Jenn: Really good at, and being bad about being a people pleaser, doing better. And I am starting to tell people that I need to go potato. Um, that is what I like. I have straight up like people it's like 10 PM and people are still eating. And I'm like, cool. I got to go potato, which is very new to me. Um, but something you said that hit me.

Jenn: is there's a balance between the thought process of no right to be there to the courage of being there. Also the courage to leave and be by yourself. And the reason this is, uh, coming as a, a bit of a complex question is you mentioned. In the last episode that when you were at home, you would have like the carnival, uh, going through your mind and telling you things.

Jenn: And then also I've experienced, um, when it sounds silly, but this, this comes in tech and my travels now and my self esteem now in my own self worth, but like that balance of, I have no right to be there, like in general, and then what's wrong with me. And then that starts to hinder me. So I like. feel bad that I'm there and then I feel bad that I'm not there and then thinking, how do I have the courage to leave or the courage to stay and what's the balance and not listening to the carnival in my head.

Jenn: So how do you figure that out? 

Todd: That's a very good question. And

Todd: I guess I figured that out right there and then probably at the last possible second and say, okay, I have to quickly assess the situation. And to be honest with you, I don't think I deserve to be in a bar period at all still. Um, uh, so I mean, I don't even trust myself a lot of the time when it comes to that.

Todd: Um, but when I'm doing the social thing at a conference, you know, or when I'm traveling, it's, I guess, you know, A typical, you know, time out during a conference would be okay. The conference day is over, friends are getting together and we are planning to go to, you know, whatever restaurant. And they have a huge bar, you know, and that's fine.

Todd: And. You know, if people are off doing their own thing and here's a good example. Last time I was in Atlanta, I went over to some seats and I sat down and I said, you know, yeah, I'm getting that feeling back of being the only person in a crowded room. I, that feeling just came over me. And you know, some people, a couple of my colleagues, you know, people I know saw me for good, for one good friend.

Todd: Uh, another person who I just met that night, um, you know, he, he was, he was, uh, with this friend of mine and they sat down and they're like, you know what, we'll hang out with you and we'll talk, we'll, we'll chat with you. Um, is that kind of support that I get? And I know a lot of people don't get that support.

Todd: And I wish. It's possible. It is possible to get that support, but here's, here's the difference. You know, I have that support now. I didn't have that support where I was just getting sober. And the people that were usually with me at a party, they weren't around anymore. They were gone. And that just tells me, well, then they must've been acquaintances, not friends.

Todd: So, for a long stretch, when I didn't go into these places, I said to myself, you know, why don't I have a group of people that I can go out with that will just do, you know, they'll put me in my place, they'll give me that check that I need, and I have that now. I never thought I would have that. So

Todd: I don't think it's courage going into these places as much as sometimes I feel like it's really, and I have to say it, it's really stupid of me to go into these places. Um, just because if I'm not, if my talk went bad, right. If I'm in my head and thinking, Oh, how could I made that talk better? Or, Oh, I messed up at these points.

Todd: I said something, uh, out of context wrong that I shouldn't have, and it was incorrect. I'm in my head immediately. Me being in a bar after that does not help in the least. So I have to call make calls, you know, text. Um, Use my, use my, use my support people. Um, you know, I have this thing where I say, you know, I have my family, my immediate family, and then I have my speaker family, my speaker family.

Todd: They're pretty incredible people. Um, they're like, you know, they'll be like, you know, Y'all, if you're not going to the, you know, the party here that's going on that the, that the conference has sponsored, or whatever, and I send out a blast saying, hey, anybody want to go to a non alcoholic event? After the conference day, let me know, we'll get together.

Todd: We'll go out to eat. And I've had a lot of those people pass that up at that time to come with me and go have dinner. I have a nice dinner, no, no booze. And I'm, I'm eternally grateful to those people. You know, sure. They'll go off later on that evening to whatever they do. And that's fine. That's that's their life.

Todd: You know, I, I'm not going to stop them. Um, I'm at that point where I just go back to the hotel because I'm getting older and I need my sleep before I go to another conference day. Um,

Todd: so I guess the answer is it just depends. It depends on. a number of factors and just a decision is made at that very split second where I go, okay, gotta go. Or, okay, I had a good talk. Um, a lot of great feedback from people. I feel really, really good. I can handle this. And that's how I usually navigate those situations.

Jenn: I like that, um, Earlier you mentioned about being centered and then also like being in your head and those type of things and I I want to To see if this would be a good way of explaining being in your head as, uh, since that's a, a pretty common phrase yet, I, I'm not sure a lot of people, I couldn't imagine what it would have been like to not be in my head when I was constantly there of, and to me, it was a lot of.

Jenn: thinking that everybody was looking at me and noticing everything I was doing and I was under a microscope and that, um, anything I do was going to be wrong. So I would overthink the things I was going to do instead of being in the moment. Is there anything you would add to that to, to describe being in your head?

Todd: Uh, yes. So

Todd: in my example, I'm hearing You know, I kind of, I kind of described, well, I do describe it as, you know, the good angel in the cartoons and the bad angel in the cartoons and the good angel goes, Hey, you're doing good, you know, but I, you need to probably get out of this situation compared to the bad angel that goes, Hey, you know, you're fine.

Todd: You're gonna make it. Don't worry about it. Um, there's that. And that starts a tug of war in my head. And then, you know, all the noise from, you know, around me in the environment I'm in, or all the noise from my own environment. Mm hmm. You know, with the 20 billion different scenarios, I've already worked out in my head of how can this go wrong?

Todd: You know, how can I mess up or, you know, why? Am I trying to justify staying in this situation? A lot of questions go through my head. So,

Todd: you know, overthinking is going to be the one thing. And it was the one thing that made me go back out after a year or so. And, um, that overthinking, you know, the, the way I see it when I'm off the clock, you know, I don't get paid to think, nor do I get paid to overthink. I just say, you know what? Um, and I've said this a lot of times to myself where I've been sitting there and I've just been like, man, I'm not getting paid to overthink, don't overthink, do something that gets me busy to where I have to, Focus or even hyper focus on that, such as coding or, you know, reading or something that will pull me away for, you know, 10, 15 minutes.

Todd: And then hopefully by that time, you know, I'm 20, 25 minutes into something. And that all that other stuff is gone and I'm not in my head and I'm paying attention to this or, you know, I've struck up a conversation with somebody somewhere and we just talked and it's helped me get out of my head, um, which is again, the selfish part of recovery or talking to somebody.

Todd: Mm hmm. that really needs it. Therefore, I'm helping someone, which is helping me again, the selfish part, but I'm out of my head. Um, there's a lot of different ways to combat that, that I've tried, you know, a lot have worked, a lot have not worked. Um, 

Jenn: I appreciate you sharing. Oh, go ahead. Sorry.

Todd: I just try to find something else to do that'll take my focus off of what's going on up here.

Todd: To somewhere, somewhere else. So, 

Jenn: yeah, I really like that. That is something that I, I like the examples you gave of things to get out of your head too, because those are, are, our minds can be our scariest place or our best friends. And we have to work on conditioning it. And that's something that, um, when I get really overwhelmed, I always trap many here, um, I have a lot of Rubik's cubes.

Jenn: Um, I can solve a Rubik's cube. I have a tattoo of a Rubik's cube. Like this is, this is what gets me out of my head a lot of the times when I'm traveling where I get so anxious. And I bring these up because, uh, yes, they are about, can be about overall anxiety or just what's going on or being in our heads.

Jenn: Yet those are the type of things that can really like pile up and cause us to be very off centered. And it's, Something that comes to mind when I'm thinking about all of this and feeling more aligned and centered with my, myself, or, um, thinking about overcoming the shame of things that have gone on in the past.

Jenn: How did you find purpose after all of this? Like you're, you're, you're, you're, Finding, finding the, the, you know, dealing with it on a day to day basis, but then finding purpose on life after you first start recovery. 

Todd: So I was known as being that drunk guy that was always the funny guy, you know, making everybody laugh, whether it was jokes or just being a fool or doing stupid things to hurt myself. You know, falling on my face, getting, you know, whatever it may have meant. Um, now I can just be the funny guy and sober and clean.

Todd: Right. Um, I don't have to try

Todd: please people because I'm not trying to please every, you can't please everybody all the time. It's that old cliche. Right. So my purpose. I thought was gone when I got sober, who am I, who am I going to be when, you know, when I, if I ever get the time in and I found that me now has done a lot more than me then, because I wasn't in my, uh, you know, I wasn't in my house hold up in a room.

Todd: Just drinking the day away or days away. I was, I am doing things now that are constructive, um, that I try to help people when they need and when they approach me, um,

Todd: my purpose, I guess, was to, you know, get sober, talk about it, talk about recovery, and at the same time, dive more into my profession. You know, that being accessibility, and doing accessibility work, and speaking about it, and writing about it, and talking about it. and getting more awareness of accessibility out there.

Todd: So I think I found my purpose when I got sober. I just didn't realize it. Because I was still in, you know, I was still playing the victim card. Poor me. Now I gotta, now I gotta get sober. Because people don't wanna, you know, because people don't want to talk to me. Because people don't want to invite me over anymore.

Todd: because I've been kicked out of places. I can't go to the same restaurants cause I get kicked out of those places. I can't go to these places cause I get kicked out of those places. Right? So I guess my purpose was to get sober and clean and You know, while there was a struggle with, you know, staying clean, my path has been more of, you know, getting sober and staying sober.

Todd: Um, and when I, and it just hit me now, I mean, when I, when I, when I spoke out loud about it, I'm in a place where I never thought I'd be. You know, I'm on a podcast talking about recovery miles, light years away from, you know, coming to in a dumpster by a sushi restaurant in Portland, Maine. So I guess my purpose is to talk about recovery, try to help people.

Todd: And, uh, I think that beats the alternative.

jenn: you, you talked about that a part of it is, you know, no longer being a victim and, and could you talk more, uh, about how your mindset started changing there of being a victim to being somebody that it's. It was really hard for me to understand this of being responsible for who I am now, no matter what's happened to me.

jenn: And I'm curious how you transitioned into that mindset, if you know where, like, remember how you first got started doing that. 

Todd: I do. Um, and throughout my life, I deflected everything I could. because I didn't want to get hurt. Um, and when you deflect things and not take responsibility for the things you've done, the things you've said, then you have that victim, you know, mentality, you play that victim card.

Todd: Well, you know, this situation was because of these outside things when in all actuality, it was, in the inside.

Todd: I've seen that before it, uh, you know, I've been through that. Um, so I had to sit down and, um, part of the work you do in AA is you take an inventory of things that you've done and people you have wronged for the lack of a better term, and you work towards, you know, writing it all down, uh, reading it. And then to whomever you can, or, you know, whatever you can do, you make those amends.

Todd: That's where I started the transition from victim to taking responsibility for my actions. Ownership for what the things I've done in the past. Um, and It's a bitter pill to swallow, for sure. Uh, there are amends you can make that are just…and I had to approach it where I just, you know, made the attempt, and if it was acknowledged, it was acknowledged.

Todd: Uh, And to move on, or if it wasn't acknowledged, then that would be, okay, you've, you've made the attempt. Now you have to move on. Because with me, it was always, I always need to make sure people are all right with me. Part of that people pleasing and there is one, um, amends that I can never ever make in person or communicate at all with.

Todd: And I'm fine with that. Now. Um, uh, I hurt this person greatly, not only emotionally, but you know, financially and probably many other ways that I don't know of. And I just have to, I just, what I ended up doing is writing a letter to her years ago, um, making the amends and then, um, read that out loud to you sponsor, which I did.

Todd: And then do it in the fire, let it burn up. Um, so taking responsibility for those actions and, um, it's tough, it's really, really tough when you have to look at yourself in the mirror after you beat yourself nearly to death for X amount of years or whatever, and you finally had enough of doing that. Um, when, as, as the term goes, you're sick and tired of being sick and tired.

jenn: Yeah. How did, how did you forgive yourself and start trusting yourself after that?

Todd: Little steps as far as, can I trust myself with doing this certain thing? And I would do that thing. And then be like, okay, that's, I get that little piece of trust back and keep building those little things. Um, and gradually, you know, I can, I can trust myself with knowing, well, one, knowing the difference between right and wrong.

Todd: Mm-Hmm, , those lines were blurred when I was drinking, when I'm in recovery early. I still didn't get it. Still didn't get it. I did some things where just it, you know, they were wrong. They weren't right. They were wrong. And I didn't, if I didn't recognize them, um, then it was me failing to recognize them and not wanting to recognize those things.

Todd: So I had to work, uh, and things had to happen to where, um, I had to take action to make my situation better, my inner peace, my, you know, my serenity and say, I can't do these things anymore. I have to find new things to do or new ways to approach, you know, this, or just cut it off entirely. So.

Todd: Yeah, those things, those things I had to work hard at, but trusting myself to do the right thing now, I have complete faith in that I can do that now.

jenn: How did you Build the forgiveness in yourself while also having to rebuild some of those relationships

Todd: when I would look back when I read my inventory, um, the things that, uh, well, everything on that list and there was four pages deep. Um,

Todd: I had to look at them and say, you know what you did wrong.

Todd: You have to come to the willingness and have the open mindedness to acknowledge that. And that started the forgiveness inside me. Um,

Todd: there were things that I thought I would never forgive myself for, which I have. And there, there were one or two things that I still haven't forgiven myself for, which I'm still working through. You know,

Todd: it's, it's always work to You know, I trying, uh, I can't try to repair relationships if they cannot be repaired or if the other person doesn't want to repair them, you know, if those relationships are fractured beyond the point of repair, I have to let that person go. And it's not easy sometimes. A lot of the times it hasn't been easy for me, but I've had to do it.

Todd: Um, and then I've had to sit, you know, I've had to put myself in somebody else's shoes and say, you know, here's what was done. to me, would I put up with that behavior that I exhibited in, you know, 10 times out of 10, it was no. And I can understand why those people wouldn't want to continue that relationship or, or repair it.

Todd: So with that, you know, you know, that's understandable. And, um, and I'm okay with that. I understand. And. You know, they're doing it for their inner peace and their serenity. For the ones that I've been able to repair, it's a lot of work and it's a lot of rebuilding trust with people. Um, and I've let, you know, I, I made the attempt at the amends and then I let the other person come back with.

Todd: Hey, you want to go out for coffee or would you like to go to dinner and this, that, and the other thing and, and, and talk some more, you know, if they want to, if they want to, uh, repair the relationship, that's, and this is going to sound, you know, kind of self centered, but you know, that's on them because

Todd: if they see the attempt I'm making to better myself without booze and, you know, If they, um, uh, if they acknowledge the amends and, you know, see whatever the attempt I'm making, then that's just a bonus for me. I, I, you know, I can't, I can't tell people, you know, Hey, let's, you know, stop me. Let's not stop being friends because of this.

Todd: I can't. Um, So I've had to let go of a lot of stuff in order for that healing to begin. So, and, and it's happened in a, in a lot of relationships that I had, I mean, were they as close? No, but they're still there. I, I communicate with a lot of the people, not as often as I did, but the communication is there.

Todd: A hi, hello, how's things? Good. You know, months later, whatever. Um,

Todd: that forgiving myself has been. a very long chapter in the, in my story. And I think that'll be a common theme as I keep going forward and, and forgive myself for other things that I'm working on. So

jenn: Something that, um, kind of hit me a little interesting of, on being on the other side of that, of having people in my life that are, have attempted at recovery or have not, um, is there's been where for myself, I've had to put up the boundaries that I can't, I can't care anymore. Like it's, it's not like I don't want to, I just, I can't because of so many times.

jenn: And I could also see how If someone eventually, you know, got clean and got their life together and found their purpose, those types of things, how. Do you forgive them for not wanting that relationship? Like you, you talked about it and forgiving yourself and that type of thing, but how do you forgive them for not wanting that relationship anymore or being okay?

jenn: I don't know if forgiveness is the right way, but, uh, not being angry with it. 

Todd: Yeah.

Todd: I don't personally, I don't believe that, you know, anybody that is trying to or in recovery, um, can say, Oh, you, they have to forgive me or expect forgiveness. That's on the other person. And something that I've always carried with me for the longest time now is, um, what other people think of me as none of my business.

Todd: And I didn't get that at first. And I'm thinking, well, yeah, I have the right to know what people think of me. Cause then I want to go and, you know, have some words and maybe throw some hands and all these stupid ideas, you know? So I kind of look at it that way. What other people think translate, you know.

Todd: Translates to however they feel about the situation, that's none of my business whether they want to forgive me or not, because that's less, and here's the, here's the common theme throughout recovery is the selfishness, not having that outlook of, well, they have to forgive me, or they should forgive me, or they must forgive me, that's a lot of weight off my mind.

Todd: That's one more thing, or one less thing. I have to think about, or worry about, or, or, you know, um, you know, think about, and I, and I am pretty sure that I've, you know, been angry, oh, this person didn't forgive me. And that's my ego talking, and boy, do I have a big ego. 

jenn: We all do. That is the hardest, one of the hardest things I've ever had to learn.

Todd: We all have an ego. And when we think that we need to be forgiven and we're not, we go into the, we go into that, you know, defensive stance, that defensive mode of, well, why not? And it's almost like you're appalled that that person did not forgive you. Well, that's their choice, not yours. You know, and we hear all the time about choices.

Todd: And we hear people argue all the time about, you know, who gets to decide who makes the choice of what? Well, the people that make the choices about themselves are the ones that get to do that.

Todd: Like if I've wronged you, for instance, and then a year later we, you know, I make my attempt at an at an amends and you say, cool,

Todd: I can't think, well, Jen needs to forgive me for that. I gotta say I've made my amends. It's time to move on, you know, best wishes, best of luck, et cetera, et cetera, not Jen needs to forgive me. And then stew over that and let that swirl around in my head and get the carnival going to where I go. Can I swear?

jenn: Yeah. I mean, this is called shit. You don't want to talk about. So fuck it. Do it. 

Todd: You get to the point where I'm like, so in my head going. Jen needs to forgive me. Fuck it. I'm going to drink. 

jenn: Yeah. 

Todd: It's that one little trigger. It's the tiniest, you know, it's that, it's that shoelace untied, which I call 

jenn: it.

jenn: How and you, you, again, I'm like, stop reading my mind, please. Because you do lead into them so well. Uh, Then how do you not do, or like, have you experienced or seen others or have suggestions around not doing the opposite? So if somebody's expecting a, for like being forgiven, like that's one thing, but how to not grovel or like, do you, um, be so caught up on that forgiveness that it Destroys your life, I guess is 

Todd: right.

Todd: Get a look at it this way. If you bump into somebody in public and they don't say, excuse me, are you going to go the rest of the day being pissed off because they bumped into you and didn't say thank you or excuse me? 

jenn: I would be confused if they said, thank you. 

Todd: I wouldn't be too. Um, 

jenn: but no, same thing. If I opened the door for someone, like, I'm not going to be upset if they didn't say thank you.

jenn: Right. 

Todd: Right. And you know, or, or when you're driving and you let somebody out ahead of you in traffic and they don't wave, are you going to go chase them down and say, Hey, you needed to wave at me to acknowledge that I was nice to you. It, the life doesn't work that way. Right. Right. And I did that once I literally followed somebody until, and this was when I was still drinking.

Todd: I wasn't drinking and driving, but this was when I was still drinking and I followed them because I was a very angry and bitter person. And I said, you're an asshole. You didn't give me the wave. I was being nice, acknowledge your King kind of deal, you know? So to answer the question, you got to move on.

Todd: That's, that's just it. You have to move on because it will start to fester and you know, it'll, it'll drive you batty and it will drive you to the point where you're not going to make rational decision. Like with me, if, if I'm in traffic and I let you ahead of me and you just keep on going on with your day, it's like, I'm not going to be mad about it.

Todd: I'm not going to go home and go, the girl with the purple hair and traffic, I'm going out and having a drink, you know, 

jenn: it's a, it's something that I, I think is a big thing of going back to when we're in our head, like you're bringing it up so well, because if, if you don't wave and I let you into traffic, old me in my head would have been like, they did that on purpose.

jenn: Yeah. 

Todd: They 

jenn: didn't wave on me because they have a spite against me where now, A, I either don't realize it or B, if I do realize it, I'm like, Oh, they probably didn't even think of it. Like my world's the world's not centered around me. 

Todd: Correct. Yes. Yeah. They're not thinking maybe they are having a rough day.

Todd: Maybe they have a lot to do and their, their minds are somewhere else that I can, I would bet eight out of 10 that would be the case with people. You know, other people aren't thinking of me, right? You know, I bump into the, I bump into the guy, you know, at the airport and he didn't say, excuse me. Uh, and I said, excuse me.

Todd: I'm like, you know, I gotta go on. I gotta, I gotta catch my plane. I gotta get, and when I get to my destination, I'm not going to be like, you know, that dude in the Atlanta airport that bumped into me, fuck that guy. You know, that's not what I'm thinking. 

jenn: That is a lot of effort. And it's even just the way we're talking about it.

jenn: You can start to see how they can pile up to cause to be like, All these people did this stuff to me to go grab something to release that and make you feel better. And I can, I'm really starting to see how that does pile up just on little things with mindset in general. 

Todd: Some of the way I've explained it is this, you can put shit on a pedestal.

Todd: In a museum and call it art, but it's still going to be a pile of shit on a pedestal, right? Fair point. That's those little things that build up. It's all that shit that builds up during the day. That's like, you can't let that get to you.

Todd: Um, 

jenn: real quick. I, I do want to say y'all, as you're listening to this or watching this, these are best practices. These are things that we're calling out that do call a, like come up, this shit still happens to me where like, if somebody cuts me off in traffic, I'm like, dude, bro, like, yeah, you could have done that early, better your job.

jenn: Or like, this is not saying that these do not happen to us. They do. They, at least I can say for myself, they do, they a hundred percent do. If somebody doesn't say, excuse me, mattering on how bad that they. Ran into me or I ran into them, you know, it might be like, bruh. But in some days they do stack up and I do think about them nonstop.

jenn: So I do want to say just cause we're talking about them and how not to do them doesn't mean that they don't happen. 

Todd: Yeah. That's just natural reaction. So like the new England thing, me being from Maine and being from new England originally, the main, main thing to do or the new England thing to do would be in your car guy, you know, you, you wave somebody in and they don't wave, you're like, fuck that guy.

Todd: I'll be as bad, you know, you're like, screw you, pal, you should have waived, but it doesn't, like I said, it doesn't work that way. And, and these are the things, and I just, I also want to make it clear that this is personal experience and that I'm not dispensing advice so that people can, you know, write it down and say, well, this is what's supposed to work because it just works for me.

Todd: Everybody else is different. It may work for other people and that would be great. But for me, you know, I'm relaying my experience in the things that I do. So I just want to put that out there as well. 

jenn: And, and also. I don't think we've touched on it exactly, but I do, um, want to call it out of a lot of these things are like building a muscle.

jenn: They feel insanely uncomfortable and consciously having to remember these things that, Oh, I didn't want to get mad about that. How do I not get mad about this? Like this, I'm, I'm mad because I'm mad about the thing I'm not supposed to be mad about. And those are all, all parts. of the journey and it takes time to change your mindset and change these habits.

Jenn: You talked about the road of recovery and being, uh, a lot to do with AA and how to get out of, um, you know, when you're in your head and different, um, like ways when you're traveling and those around you, have you looked into things like therapy or other types of support? And if so, like, what was your experience like there?

Todd: Uh, I did AA and it helped a lot. I won't, I won't deny that. Um, and a lot of the, a lot of the principles and a lot of the thing in, in pieces of AA, I use as ways to stay sober, but it's not the only way I don't, you know, I don't, uh, swear on the, on the book of AA solely. I've used therapy before. Um, I've talked with therapists.

Todd: I think it's a wonderful way to have another. space to get out what you need to get out and having to speak with a therapist isn't a bad thing. It's not a shameful thing either. Um, there used to be, and maybe there still is, this stigma of, well, So once I was talking with the therapist, so they must be, you know, whatever, but it's, it's a way to talk to another human being who has a neutral point of, you know, a neutral attitude to

Todd: hearing what you have to say and not judging one and two offering suggestions on, well, maybe there are ways to make this work or to help you. In your journey. So, you know, I, I've talked with a few therapists, uh, I have not done, um, anything else other than

Todd: taking the pieces of AA with me that I have in my, in my kit, in my toolkit, as I call it, and then just using good judgment. And that started probably when, oh, I guess I was in year eight. So a couple of years ago, maybe even 2020, to where I said, well, first of all, we were, you know, going through COVID, the beginning of, So, you know, meetings were getting shut down and you had to find other ways to do things.

Todd: So I found virtual meetings. Um, I found people to talk to. Um, I found ways to, uh, take care of myself, make sure I stay on the sobriety train. That I wouldn't necessarily say would work for anyone else but me. Everybody's got their own path and whatever is on that path for resources or for help, you know, that's the path that person's going to take, myself included.

Todd: Um, I haven't tried, you know, there's other techniques on staying sober that I know of and I know people that are doing these other techniques and that's their choice. Um, I don't judge. Those people can always come to me if they need help or need to talk because we're all in the same boat when it boils down to it.

Todd: You know, we're, we're trying to do better, we're trying to stay sober or clean, you know, so just being there for one another. And I've had the, I've had the fortunate grace to have those people around me, you know, not all are speaker family or conference buddies or, you know, um, they've just been, you know, people I've met and talked to.

Todd: Whether it be at a meeting, at an AA meeting, um, at a support group meeting or, um, a virtual meeting. So, um, everybody's road is different. 

Jenn: Thank you. And that I, one thing that you mentioned to me, uh, when we had our intro call was that you listened to every single episode, which I'm still very excited about it.

Jenn: And like, whoa, people actually listen. This is really cool. And also mind boggling. And I, That is one of the things that I do this podcast for as well is people share their best practices and things that have helped them that listening to resources like podcasts or books or, um, you know, like books. Blogs, Twitter has even helped me or X formerly known as Twitter.

Jenn: Um, and LinkedIn, like there's, there are a lot of resources out there and just finding out what works best for you. You mentioned that there's so many people on, you know, we all have different ways of getting to the, the destination of wanting to, you know, better ourselves in the world and so much there.

Jenn: But how do you have. Like what goes through your mind when you see other people struggling with what you used to struggle with and just in general, but also how do you deal with it when they're not wanting to get help?

Todd: When I see somebody struggling, I'll talk to them.

Todd: A lot of the times people just need somebody to talk to and unload and that's fine. Again, it's me helping them and me helping myself at the same time. It happens when they don't want help. If they don't want help, you can't force that help on them. They have to go even further down before they can start to climb back up.

Todd: I had to go through that. I had to go through an extremely, extremely low bottom to finally say, Okay, I give up. I give, I cannot live like this anymore. I can't let all these things and all these feelings overpower me.

Todd: You know, I can't react to stressful situations or harmful situations or whatever situation with, Oh, I'm going to the bar. I can't do that anymore. So, I look at somebody and if they want to talk, they, they will talk. If they don't want to talk, they won't talk. And I can't force them to do that. And they will need to find the help on their own.

Todd: I can offer suggestions. Why don't you try AA or NA or, you know, try anything that you can possibly think of to just not drink or, you know, whatever. Um, whatever the, the poison is, whether it's drinking drugs, gambling, sex, you name it, whatever vice it is, they need to get that help and they need to take that first step forward.

Todd: I cannot, and as much as I am an anti cliche person, you know, the, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. That's entirely true, right? So,

Todd: as much as it pains me to not being able to help somebody, I understand and I acknowledge that they need to do that themselves. Take that first step. And then after that, if they want to talk, I'm here. 

Jenn: Yeah. Thank you for that.

Jenn: I know this episode is going a bit longer. Normally I would have asked probably almost 30 minutes ago. Oh, wow. Uh, it was, there anything else that I didn't ask you about or that we haven't talked about that you wanted to talk about? 

Todd: Um, let's, I know we, you briefly mentioned this. Why don't we talk about a sponsor versus mentor?

Jenn: Oh, yes. I sent him questions that I came up with beforehand. So, um, the. Where this, this thought process came in about, um, this question was at work and in a lot of industries, there's something called a mentor and I've been, um, been told in the past that there's, uh, in a, um, When I'm talking about the job and like work industry, that there's like a referral, meaning that, Oh, Hey, I know this person you might want, there's this job you can apply for.

Jenn: It's just a referral. There's no strings attached. You just know someone who knows someone. Um, and then there's like mentorship. That is like helping someone grow, um, and like giving pointers. And then I've heard it also referred to as sponsorship where it's like a mentor, but then they'll also be like, yo, I will vouch for this person to help them grow their, in, in their career.

Jenn: And. I wanted to ask this question because I hear similarities when you talked about a sponsorship and I was curious, what do you think of like the two between like AA and like job industry or in general between the two of us sponsor and a mentor? 

Todd: So I do mentor in the tech space. I've done a lot of mentoring and That is work that you do, or the work that I do is get together on a call with somebody, go through whatever we're going through, let's just say accessibility for, for an example, and, you know, uh, teach them and talk to them about it.

Todd: Ask questions and how does it pertain to this product or this organization you work for and, um, you schedule an hour call. Or whatnot and discuss that stuff so they can better their knowledge. It's that's primarily education behind a mentorship is how I view it. The sponsor part of recovery is it's like that, but it's also a lot different.

Todd: Um, because you're, you're on a more personal level with the sponsorship, I'm not going to, I'm not going to be on a call with a mentee going, man, I almost slipped up and almost had a drink the other night that would have ruined my sobriety, for instance. I'm not going to say that to a mentee at all. I'm going to tell my sponsor that.

Todd: That's having somebody as a sponsor is kind of like, it's this on a, on a more, I guess, intimate level of, here's what's going on with my life. I just want to talk about it and, and get it out and see what, if the sponsor has any suggestions or, or put in the work with my sponsor to avoid, you know, a situation where it's, it's not going to be healthy or helpful.

Todd: To my sobriety. So there's a lot more on a personal level with a sponsor than there is with a, with a mentor. Um, there's education behind getting sober. Absolutely. So there's one commonality. Um, another is, it's just, you know, being one on one with somebody, but on a different level. And there is a line between the two, I feel, that's very, that, that separates them from each other.

Jenn: And that, and that makes sense. I think. A lot of people don't realize or have greater expectations when they go into like a work mentorship and when they may be looking for something more like a sponsor or a coach or something like that. And. My hopes behind this question in our conversation here was for people to let know a bit more about the terms and to find out what they may need when going through these types of situations.

Todd: Yeah. And both mentor and sponsor, they do like I've sponsored somebody in recovery. I've sponsored a couple of people in recovery and I've mentored, as I said, a few people. And there's one commonality, that is, there is a line that the mentee or the sponsee should not cross. Um, it's almost, it's, it's, it's kind of like a code of conduct, actually.

Todd: When I think about it, it's like, okay, here's my expectations, but please don't cross the line when it comes to this, this, and this. Um, and, and it's a case by case. I guess with the person who is either the mentor or the sponsor, like my sponsor, he says, uh, to me when we first started my current sponsor, I should say, um, here's the hours.

Todd: You can call me between, uh, And that's, you know, 9 to 9 to 9 p. m. 9 a. m. to 9 p. m. Any other time you text, and if I don't return the text, I will return it the next day. Or I will return it, you know, if you leave a voicemail, I will return your call. 

Jenn: Okay. 

Todd: With a, a mentorship that's like, here's where we have an hour block per day.

Todd: That's it. Be at that meeting. And I expect you to be there at those meetings. If you're not there. And I've known a couple people that have said, if you miss two calls in a row, I can't mentor you anymore because just, you're not showing me that drive that you want to learn. Um, so there are some, some differences between the two, definitely.

Todd: And those are what lines that you shouldn't cross, you know, um, and again, that, that level of, you have a work relationship or a working relationship as a mentor, but you have a working relationship plus that personal level in a sponsorship.

Jenn: That, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you I, before I, because I have an idea for words of, uh, a question to ask you instead of words of wisdom this time. So I'm also trying not to get excited and jump ahead. Any other things you think we should bring up before I go that one? Um, because I know I'm just excited about it, but I'm like, I don't need to like skip to it, 

Todd: right?

Todd: Um, actually, yes. If you are somebody who still, you know, you're still. a drinker or, you know, you drink, that's, that's fine. Don't, um, I guess this is goes for anybody listening, really don't treat somebody in recovery any differently than you would anybody else. You know, don't, the thing that always got me, and it's still kind of gets me is, are you okay?

Todd: We're sitting in a restaurant. Are you okay? 

Jenn: You 

Todd: see, you know, Yeah, I'm fine. I'm having my meal. I'm fine. If there is something wrong, that person will tell you, if they choose to. I 

Jenn: can, I can see how they're saying that as out of, like, concern, and 

Todd: Yes. 

Jenn: Is it something that, Is there a better way of asking it because it, I can only imagine that there's probably, it may be a lot of people's first time in the support role and that's what it is.

Jenn: It's a support role. And would you say it would have been helpful to hear something or be asked more along the lines of what's the best way to support you when we go into these situations? Or is there something I can do to support you more? 

Todd: That's exactly it. How can I support you? 

Jenn: Is there a number? I, knowing me and, uh, my, my friends and family and a lot of people can vouch that I might be going, Hey, how can I support you?

Jenn: It's been, it's been a day. Can I support you more today? Um, I say that jokingly. I have had to learn to not do that because of not being afraid, I'm not doing enough for them and going. Okay. I'm going to ask them, they know I'm here and then I'm going to drop it. And it's very hard to do. Is there something that would have helped you a lot when you were going through this of a cadence or something that you may suggest for people in support roles?

Todd: I guess, Oh, here's a perfect example. Um, I had. people and I had one person come up to me and say, are you sure you're going to be okay in here? And then I had another one come up to me and say, you know, do we need to sit far away from this area because there's booze over there, there's a bar over there or whatever.

Todd: Um, And then another person with, you know, you don't mind if I drink, do you? It's like, just don't, don't try to go out of your way to nerve, I guess I don't want to say nervously ask or say, but you know, don't try to, don't go out of your way to try and accommodate somebody in recovery.

Todd: Yeah, in a, in a way that kind of makes them feel a little bit smaller. I guess, I guess you could put it if that's understandable or 

Jenn: yeah, in a way, would you say that it's something like, um, Putting that emotional and thought burden on them when people are asking that because they're constantly other people are asking for reassurance from the person recovering.

Todd: I like, you know, the concern that you, you spoke of, I, I get that. I get there's some concern, you know, Todd, we don't want to see you, you know, uh, you've had a bit, you've had a lousy day. We don't want to see you, you know, get any lower than you possibly can because of what information that I have told them as far as my recovery, as far as my past.

Todd: Okay, um,

Todd: All I will say is I just need your support. I just need, I, I need, I know you have my back. I just need your support. Talk to me. Um, they, I don't like to generalize it, but, um, people in recovery, Maybe not from day one, well definitely not from day one, but as, as time goes on, we know that you're concerned. Um, we know that, you know, we're important, you're just as important to us as we are to you.

Todd: It's almost like a, a patronizing feeling, for me anyways, is. I don't, I don't like to be coddled. So, you know, trying to make accommodations for me that I don't think are necessary. That, that, that, that will get under my skin, but it's just like, I understand the concern and I will say that I understand your concern.

Todd: I am fine. Everything is, everything is good. Um, if there isn't. I will tell you. I just need you to have my back.

Jenn: That, that brings up an interesting follow up question as well, of when people have gone through recovery and was there a way you were taught about or suggestions you have around telling new people about where you're at in life. So like, yes, I, I, I know you and I've talked, um, outside of the interviews, uh, about that.

Jenn: We both have jobs that travel, like we meet a lot of people all the time. And you know, that's, that to me is a little different, like, You can gauge that pretty, um, that's up to you. It's a, a public person. But when I mean a new person is like somebody that is starting to get closer or a friend of, you know, a significant other, or, you know, people that are permanently or could permanently be there more often.

Jenn: How, is there a suggestion of how, when to bring all of this up to them? Do you, do you need to, is, that's also, please, a question in there. 

Todd: Um, when they,

Todd: how do I put this, when they look inward and say, I'm open for help now, I need help, they will come to you. I can't. Not 

Jenn: really quick, not that, but necessarily telling them about your past. Like, 

Todd: so when, like when they ask about my past, 

Jenn: yeah, like if you were to, let me, um, say this another way. So, okay.

Jenn: Granted, my partner and I have been together for six years, but let's say we just started dating and I have, uh, are still going through recovery. Maybe it's been a year or something like that. At what point would I. Tell him or, you know, Hey, I'm struggling with this or Hey, this is a big part of my life. So you need to know about this or is it something that isn't necessarily needs to be disclosed in certain situations?

Todd: Okay. When the time is right, you will, you will know you will feel that feeling of, okay, we need to sit down and I need to tell you about what happened X amount of years ago. Because there's things that have been brought up lately that are making me, you know, think back to, or there's some trauma or whatnot.

Todd: I need to talk to you about this. Those conversations get started when you are ready and you can feel that you're ready to have those conversations. Now, if the other person is not ready and they tell you that, then, like with me, I've been like, okay, well, we can have this conversation in the future, you know, at another time, or That's fine.

Todd: I can, I can go talk to somebody else, but you will know when you're ready for those conversations. And if those, if the other person's ready for that conversation, it will more than likely lead to a lot of help and healing, no matter what it is. No matter what it is. 

Jenn: Thank you for that. All right. Any other things that before I ask the question that I'm trying to hold off on?

Todd: Nope. Go ahead. Ask away. 

Jenn: Um, because, uh, normally at this point it would be, you know, words of wisdom. How do people reach out to you? Um, but instead of words of wisdom, I wanted to ask if somebody is on their road of recovery and going, now what, what are some things that you may suggest for someone to find their purpose?

Todd: Good question. Um,

Todd: there's always a few questions I ask. Have you tried this? Have you tried that? Have you talked to a therapist? Have you, um, talked with family? Have you talked with friends? Um,

Todd: have you thought about it to the point where you're not overthinking it?

Todd: Usually if that question comes up to me, it's like now's the perfect time to talk about it. If you want to talk about it, um,

Todd: conversations get started when people are ready to have those conversations. So suggestions, if they're open and willing to take those suggestions, great. Then we'll have that conversation. So Um, person says to me, you know, I'm having a really rough go of it, you know, what else can I do? And that gets the conversation started.

Todd: Um, have you tried this, that, um, I personally do this or that to help me, maybe it will help you. So, um, 

Jenn: Then a question on that one of, if I'm going through my life, just getting up, you know, eating, going to work, going home and have no purpose. What are some questions that I could ask myself to start thinking about finding my purpose?

Todd: I would say if you wake up one morning and you're asking yourself that, ask yourself, what makes me happy? What brings me serenity and peace of mind? What thing do I have where I look forward to doing that thing? Whether it be, you know, art, drawing, painting, uh, code, what have you, find that one thing, immerse yourself in it, maybe do something to the point where, um, you're sharing it with others.

Todd: To help them, uh, or, or, or even, you know, how do I find purpose? Well, you may, you may, I guess, be on that path. You just don't know, like me, I didn't know, you know, that, uh, my purpose was to do the things I do in accessibility and speak about, talk about recovery. Until I talked about it just now. So, and that's a, that's a really wild epiphany to have when you're on a podcast and you say it out loud and you go, and you're dead, the little voice in the back of my head's going, this is actually a, a wonderful thing to realize that I have purpose and here's what it is.

Todd: So you're going to talk about it sometime. You know, I'm going to tell you, Jen, one day, you're going to be talking about this with somebody else, or it could be, you know, you and I talking about it in the future and it'd be, and you'd be like, Oh my gosh, that is my purpose is to talk to people on a podcast about shit they don't want to talk about.

Todd: Or on stream, you know, coding or whatever it may be. So. I think you may have answered your own question in a, in a way, because I think your purpose, and this is from just my point of view is to go on a podcast and talk about shit. People don't want to talk about with people. And continue that 

Jenn: conversation 

Todd: in all these, all these different areas that you've talked about.

Todd: I think that is your purpose. Cause I think by the reactions I'm seeing that it makes you fulfilled and happy. 

Jenn: It does. And that's a big reason that I want, I want to have other people find their purpose. Like it, it definitely doesn't mean need to be difficult conversations. You know, like, I don't know why that's my thing.

Jenn: It's my thing. And I, I definitely feel the very same that it is my purpose and to making things more of a level playing ground when people can understand others better. I'm here to get the conversation started. My partner absolutely loves fishing. He loves fishing, like loves fishing. And I'm just like, bro, I don't even know how you do it.

Jenn: You have fun with it. And yeah, following your dreams. They, they, it's crazy when it can go back into finding your center, because when you're going after your purpose, things kind of just start falling into place in a very weird way. That is kind of creepy, but kind of cool. Um, And that's a big reason that I, I, I wanted to bring it up as, instead of words of wisdom was how do people start if they are interested in finding their purpose?

Jenn: Because they had to work really hard to get to recovery and, and it can be a daily struggle. Then how do they, what's next? And thank you for answering that. 

Todd: Doing the work. Yeah. Doing what makes them happy, and if they do that, and there is a way that when they do that thing, that it helps other people, they will know that it, you know, there's some purpose there.

Todd: They will find that purpose. I think we can find the purpose in all of ourselves. At some point, especially when you're not, when you're not expecting it, when you're talking about it on a podcast and it hits you that, you know,

Jenn: I get that because, uh, uh, to, to share a bit about my own is I've always had a knack for having these conversations. I've never meant to do it. Like I used to work retail, I'd be asking somebody about their phone and they end up telling me their life story. And I'm just like, I didn't, I did not, I don't know what to do with this information.

Jenn: And that always happens in so many different jobs. And I thought it was something that happened to everybody. And it was actually, um, somebody that I also met in the tech scene, but has, was my first, uh, cross, uh, show person was, um, he wasn't on teach and tech, but he has been on shit. You don't want to talk about the episode with Wesley Faulkner.

Jenn: He was the first person that at least the person that it clicked with when they said it was, um, just because it's easy for me doesn't mean it doesn't have value. And that was when it really clicked that just because these conversations happen a lot around me doesn't mean it happens to everybody else.

Jenn: And it doesn't mean that it's not a value and it's not a skill. And that was something that I was like, Oh shit. Oh, uh. I guess I should probably do something with it. Yeah. And thank you for going into more and I'm excited that you had that epiphany. How do people reach out to you? 

Todd: Well, I'm on LinkedIn. Uh, just look me up, Todd.

Todd: Libby, I have a little lobster emoji in front of my name to Ward off all the, you know, evil bot spirits on LinkedIn, , and so far so good. Um, but I'm on LinkedIn, you can find me there. Um, find me on. Uh, Twitter X, whatever they're calling it now, I call it Twixter because I still feel it's still Twitter. Oh, 

Jenn: okay.

Jenn: That works. But 

Todd: I'm at Toddlibby, T O D D D as in Delta, L I B B Y B as in Bravo. Um, I, I'm, I'm usually lurking and, and chirping, chirping at people that I know on Twitter. Um. And, you know, those are like the two places I'm on a bunch of discord servers. So if you can find me there, I'm just Todd again with a little lobster emoji there.

Todd: So I'm, you know. If you can't tell, again, behind me, uh, I like lobster being from Maine. I explained this on the, on the first, uh, uh, during our first conversation. So, you know, where there's lobster, there's probably me. Um, what else? Uh, I do have, uh, I am on Twitch where I do some programming stuff. Most of the time, you know, couple, couple nights a week or whatever.

Todd: I do play games cause I'm that guy, um, that loves to do that. So, um, it's twitch. tv backslash Todd Libby. Um, And, yeah, those are the places you can find me and, and contact me. 

Jenn: Last but not least, what is something that you're grateful for? 

Todd: Uh, I said this during our, after our first conversation, but it's again, being, being sober.

Todd: So I'm grateful for being sober today because it afforded me to have this awesome conversation with you and, um, and the people listening or watching and, um, if I'm not sober, I'm not here right now. Talking about recovery and, um, I don't have, you know, if I'm not sober, I don't have the stuff that I have now.

Todd: And, um, the stuff that I have now is worth keeping. So it's worth staying sober for. So, um, grateful for being sober today. 

Jenn: Thank you. And I would say something that I'm, I'm grateful for is, uh, I am grateful for finding and allowing myself time to rest because the rest is what has made, given me space to get re excited, to go back to work, to work on the podcast, work on the live stream and to change from the wing it phase to the strategy phase and having the audacity to do it all.

Jenn: Thank you again for joining us today, Todd. I really appreciate it. 

Todd: Thank you for having me. It was wonderful to talk to you again. 

Jenn: Bye!