Donor Conception is Shit2TalkAbout S3 EP3
“But today, for queer families, who are, you know, typically same-sex families, or often families that have gone through, um, uh, you know, medical procedures that result in them no longer being able to produce, like, sperm or egg cells, for them, the only options are to involve donors.”
Embryo Advocate, Miki Habryn, joins us to talk about the importance of embryo donation and donor conception for people who have no other options. Yo Embryo Website
Transcript
Jenn: Hello. Hello, beautiful humans. Welcome back to another episode in season three of shit you don't want to talk about. Hey, Mickey, who are you and what is some shit you want to talk about?
Miki: Hi everyone. My name is Mickey and, uh, I have a beautiful wife, an adorable daughter, two ridiculous cats, and six embryos vitrified in liquid nitrogen at our fertility clinic.
Miki: I've been working in tech for about 30 years. And for my day job, I'm a mild-mannered engineering director. But by night, I'm a caped crusader for queer fertility, or more accurately in the early morning while wearing pajamas I try to make embryo donation more accessible for all kinds of families, but especially queer ones.
Jenn: And there's there's a few things to take away from that of a, I don't know how you do anything early in the morning I have early morning calls and I'm like I'm not awake. And so kudos to you for that one, but also embryo donation. And you talked about night. I was like, that, that is a very complex layered statement.
Jenn: You said that I feel like people may not catch on to because yes, there's the queer fertility, which I definitely think we should do a series on the show about that. Just like at some point, not going to be the only thing we talk about, uh, today, but, uh, embryo donation. What is an embryo for, uh, all of us that may not know because I'm like, I know it's a thing?I know there's, there's eggs and things, and I don't know exactly what the difference is between an embryo and that, but then also what is embryo donation?
Miki: Sure. So in mammal reproduction, there is an egg cell that unites with a sperm cell, and that for humans happens typically in the act of sex. But not exclusively. And when those two cells unite, the, um, they each carry half of the complement of genetic information that the, you know, that the human carries, or the, you know, the usual organism carries. And those two things combine in an embryo. That embryo is a single cell at the start that merges in both sets of genetic information, and then it goes through, um, a phase of rapid growth where it doubles and doubles again in those, uh, videos that perhaps people saw in school, um, and there are various names for the various phases that it goes through, uh, we sort of refer to it all as an embryo until it gets to a certain stage where we, where we can see the kind of organism that it's becoming, and we start calling it a fetus at that point, um, There's sort of a, there is the lay language around this, which is very kind of fuzzy and not specific, uh, whereas the technical language like has names for, you know, uh, um, a, you know, uh, the, the, the embryo when it reaches a certain size is now called something else, it's called a blastocyst or a marula or various things like that, um, but in the normal course of, um, in the normal course of things, like that develops in utero, in a uterus, and it attaches to the wall and it grows into, you know, uh, Uh, baby that is delivered.
Miki: Um, so embryo donation is, uh, one of the things that comes about because, for some people, they don't have the option for whatever reason of having this kind of, you know, standard biological pregnancy and delivery and science and medicine step in to help things out. And so one of the things that has been going on for about 40 years, 45 years now is called IVF.
Miki: The original test tube baby was born in the late 70s. Um, and so in that situation, the egg cells and the sperm cells are collected separately and they are combined, uh, basically in a petri dish, in a glass dish. using various mechanisms, and then the embryo starts growing in that dish in a growth medium for a while.
Miki: And then once that embryo looks like it is thriving or succeeding, then it is transplanted mechanically into the uterus, where it, ideally, the pregnancy then continues as normal. What typically happens is that, um, in the course of collecting egg cells and sperm cells, you don't collect just one. So the collection process will typically result in countless squillions of sperm cells and often a number like 10 or 20 egg cells.
Miki: And that's the egg harvesting process. Uh, and so all of them are typically fertilized. There's not much point in keeping them waiting around. And you will wind up with a situation where at the fertility clinic, um, once everything is collected and fertilized, You have some number of embryos that are viable, that number is like, it can be anything from like 1 to 30 depending on how lucky you are during collection and how lucky you are during fertilization, and typically you don't transplant more than one at a time, and so the rest are frozen, and once frozen, they can survive for you.
Miki: So, um, Uh, you know what? We actually don't know how long there have been embryos transplanted that have been decades old and they have thrived. There's been no problem with that. Um, certainly with eggs as well. Um, and typically people want a certain number of children or they have a certain family size in mind and you know, whatever happens, like people don't necessarily want to have typically 30 children, even if it was physically possible for them to carry that many children.
Miki: And as a result. Once people have gone through this process and they've completed their family, it is often the case that people still have some number of embryos left over. Now those embryos are, you know, a few days old, three days old, five days old, typically something like that. And so they don't take up a lot of space.
Miki: They're just frozen in liquid nitrogen at your fertility clinic, at all the hundreds or thousands of fertility clinics around, like, this country alone. And then there's this question of now what, what do you do with them? So right now, is that there's probably like a million or two frozen embryos around the U.S.
Miki: S. alone, and there's no real way to assess like how many there are in the world, because there's, there's no central registry of these things.
Jenn: Before we go into all of that, I just want to make sure I recap it. And also, um, that, uh, for anybody that was curious, if you don't know what IVF is, it's, uh, or what it stands for, because that's something that I was curious and Googling was, uh, in vitro fertilization. So, that being said, um, what I'm curious about is, or and making sure that I understand everything is okay. First off, if we talk about like, what's an embryo and what is you mentioned about IVF, you mentioned about freezing eggs, we mentioned, uh, the actual embryo and different stages of embryos. So first off we have, like, I'm going to say this is.
Jenn: Uh, separate is like freezing eggs because that is, um, somebody that is born with eggs to, uh, have children later on in life. They can freeze their eggs, but that means that it is pre, uh, ready to have a baby. Like it is like. It's just the exit self. You just have one portion of the puzzle. And then there's like IVF, like we talked about where if you're not doing it the, uh, many other ways, but you know, the old fashioned way of getting down, you can also do IVF, which is.
Jenn: A petri dish of joining them. And then there is also like joining an egg and sperm and voila, you get, uh, embryos. But then there's also like different ways where if people are wanting to save their embryos later on or something like that, you, they go throughout the world. They're frozen in nitrogen. They can, can last, we don't know how long, like you said, um, could be multiple decades.
Jenn: And then it's like, cool. We have embryos. They're not quite a fetus, which is what a lot of people think about, especially if we go into the conversation about abortion and blah, blah, blah. We will go through that at a later time. That is a different conversation. I'm trying to stay focused because I'm like, I could go in so many different directions.
Miki: We could spend like three days talking about this, honestly, like it's a
Jenn: Yes. Yes. We've already talked about that. We're going to do multiple episodes. So I'm like I gotta stick to this one. Now, now that we kind of have a better understanding of the Um, the science side of things, just to like get into the, you know, the technicalities and those things, why, um, we're talking about frozen embryos. So these are pre-fetus because they're just cells together, but it is where it is to two different humans that have, uh, their cells are mixed. So it's still like, it is ready to go. But what do we do with it? That in itself, which we've talked about is a very, very, long process of just trying to understand what's going on there and then how different it is, uh, across the world's countries, states, all of it.
Jenn: Before we get into all of this biggest thing, why is this important to you? Like, why, why do you care about all this? Because I feel like, yes, there's, there's instincts that I have that I'm like, Oh, that's kind of important, but I don't know much about it. So why is all of this important to you? And what's been your experience with this?
Miki: So it's important to me because, um, I'm queer, and so queer families are important to me, personally. Um, and the reality of queer fertility is that it requires donation. Like, you know, medically today. Like, we do not yet have the ability To, um, combine, basically to combine two sets of genetics and make a child out of that without using the biological mechanism of, um, sperm and egg and fertilization and the fertilization of the two.
Miki: Um, and so there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that are happening that might, you know, that might obviate that. situation, right? So in the future, it may be, there's, um, there's research in flight that will let you, uh, reconstruct sperm or egg cells from other cells in the body, for example. So you could harvest, like, particular cells in the body, um, whether those are stem cells or whether they are, you know, whether you can, um, regress, like, matured cells to a state where they can become, um, these are called gametes, sperm and egg, like, the collective term for that is gametes.
Miki: Whether where they can become gametes. Um, or possibly like direct nuclear transfer of DNA might be a thing in the future who knows? Um, there are some things that are like closer than others that may be in the future It would be possible for two people like regardless of whether they're able to produce like healthy and viable sperm or egg cells Right that they will be able to have a child of their combined, you know, genetic heritage.
Miki: But today, for queer families, who are, you know, typically same-sex families, or often families that have gone through, um, uh, you know, medical procedures that result in them no longer being able to produce, like, sperm or egg cells, for them, the only options are to involve donors. Um, so I'm transgender, and I was a sperm donor in the past.
Miki: And the reason that I became a sperm donor was, uh, I grew up in Australia, and in Australia, it is not legal to pay for donation. So here in the US, it is very standard for, um, sperm banks in particular to offer pay for basically contributing, uh, basically donating sperm. And so for a lot of university students, like, it's a very simple thing of, you know, you can make a few hundred or a few thousand dollars, it's not a lot of labor for you.
Miki: to, you know, basically, uh, uh, donate to a sperm bank and be paid for it. In Australia, that's not an option. And so because incentives matter, there are many, many fewer sperm donors in Australia than there are in the U. S. And so I was living in, uh, uh, the city of Sydney in Australia. Um, I grew up on the other side of the country and I had a few friends who over time would come and stay with me.
Miki: They would visit with me because they were donating eggs. Now donating eggs is very hard on the body. Like it is much tougher on the body to do that egg harvesting than it is to collect sperm. And so they would come, they would stay with me because, because you can't pay people to donate eggs, like you can at best cover costs.
Miki: Um, they were put up luxury hotel on the way to the clinic to, you know, to harvest their eggs. And the nature of these things is that you have the best success if you perform the egg harvesting procedure and you immediately fertilize the eggs. Like just immediately, the best place for an embryo is inside a uterus.
Miki: That is the place where it is most likely to thrive. Everything that we do in a glass dish is worse than the best outcomes inside a body, right? But for some bodies, like, that's not an option, and so we use the glass dish instead. But typically, when you're doing egg harvesting, you will fly the donor. To wherever it is that the family is, harvest the eggs there, do all of the medical procedures immediately on the spot, things like that.
Miki: And so I would have these friends come and stay with me overnight, typically on their way to somewhere else in Australia, and they would be sitting on my balcony and they would be injecting themselves with the hormones that they need and the medication that they need to um, uh, to basically drive the egg harvesting cycle to basically have the eggs mature to a point where they're ready to collect.
Miki: And they'll be shooting up with multiple drugs, they would be uncomfortable, like they would be Um, you know, sometimes they'll be having, you know, some kind of side effects from the medication. And I would look at that and think, I would feel kind of shamed, right? Because they're going through all of this in order to donate eggs.
Miki: It is so easy for me to donate sperm by comparison, and I do nothing about it. But I continued to do nothing about it until I read an article in the, um, I think in the, like, the national newspaper. Uh, about how in the city of Sydney, where is a city of four million people at the time, like it was the largest city, and it's still like one of the two largest cities in Australia, there were a grand total, at one of the largest fertility clinics, of five sperm donors who were available for same-sex couples or single mother spectrums.
Miki: And that I found, like, especially upsetting. And so that was the thing that finally prompted me to donate. And in the course of donating, uh, what I discovered was that the paperwork that you fill in, part of the reason why there are so few donors available for queer couples, is that there's an explicit opt-in required.
Miki: So in the paperwork, um, it is implied that you are donating for straight couples to use. But if you wanted to, uh, also, um, be a donor potentially for same-sex couples, or single mothers by choice, you had to explicitly check those boxes. And so for me, um, my understanding of the situation was that there were plenty of donors available for straight couples to use, and I specifically wanted to address the other two populations.
Miki: And so I went back to them and said, hey, so I want to, I want to exclude myself from being considered as a donor for straight couples. Where is the checkbox? And that caused a little bit of a furor at the clinic. They hadn't had a request like that before And ultimately they came back to me and said that they decided to remove those checkboxes and they would no longer Uh give donors like the the ability to do that now that I don't know whether that was the right answer Like just from that point of view, but it was the decision they made And so, as a result, I wound up Uh, donating to, I discovered over the years, um, four families, three families, three families in Australia.
Miki: Um, one of whom we're in touch with and as part of getting in touch with them and getting to know them and coming to love them as part of our family, um, I've, it has become like really clear to me, like how important this is, like the, the importance of Um, I don't quite sure what word to use here, like I don't think gift is the right word, right?
Miki: But I think that the importance and the meaning, the value of what a donor can do for a queer family that needs a donor, or just a family that needs a donor in general. And it's, and it's just really important to me, you know, like that is, um, uh, like building families is just something that is so deep and profound and important and beautiful.
Miki: Um, and so that's just important to me. And so now that
Jenn: Really quick to pause you there and just, um, to make sure that our, our listeners, uh, understand a bit and, uh, to piece in together a bit of, uh, what we talked about off, uh, beforehand in our intro call was Miki and please correct me if this, uh, summary is, is not correct.
Jenn: When Miki was living in Australia, you donated your sperm, and since it was where it was. required to be opt-in, meaning that people can reach out to you, um, the couple that you became friends with, uh, after your donation were people, a couple that, uh, you donated your sperm. So that way they were able to have, uh, a child, correct?
Miki: Uh, yes. Although you've touched on another area of controversy, which is like, what is the, I think actually like one of the most important areas of controversy, which is what exactly should the relationship be between donors? and the families that are created from, you know, from their donations, right? Who have that biological connection?
Miki: For me at the time, like, I could not imagine myself ever having a family myself. Like, that was just not a thing that was in my world. I just did not consider it as a possibility. Um, but I, you know, I wanted to leave the option open for if any of the, like, I thought it would be, I thought it would be interesting if, um, you know, there were children that resulted from this.
Miki: And, you know, 20 years later, like, they had reached the age of, um, maturity, which is when they are, uh, legally allowed to have access to my information under Australian law and to be able to identify who I am as their donor. And I thought it would just be kind of interesting if, you know, 20 years later, there was, there was a knock on my door.
Miki: And there was a person who we could have a really interesting conversation with and get to know. And of course, there's no guarantee that anything like that would ever happen, but I was, I was certainly open to it. And now I think a lot of donors are not open to that. And I think particularly the kind of donors that donate for financial reasons, who are just there for the money, I think for a lot of those people, like, they don't want that kind of encumbrance, like, they want a transactional, uh, relationship here where they donate, they take their money, and they move on with their lives.
Miki: And they don't really want to have that follow them around. Um, I was the opposite. And so for me, like, I also ticked all the boxes opting into communication and saying that I was absolutely open to being contacted by any of the families. And, uh, and so that's what happened. So only one of the families has reached out.
Miki: Um, and we started communicating through the clinic, like exchanging letters through the clinic. Uh, it was a lesbian couple who were, um, trying to do the responsible thing by their child. Knowing that their child would have questions when that child was old enough about, like, where did I come from? Like, how is it that my family looks different to most of the other families I see at school?
Miki: So they were writing a book. They were putting together a book of photos, like, the story of how they met, their relationship, how the child was conceived, like, basically the story of their family. And the reason that they were reaching out to me was that they wanted to be transparent about You know in the book that they had used the donor and they wanted to know, what did I want to include about myself?
Miki: In that book for their child and so that was the reason they reached out but um, we then continued in contact we became friends uh my uh Wife who is was not my wife at the time like we visited with them when we met them for the first time Uh, the child was two years old too shy to talk to us hid behind their legs a lot But we built like we built a really Um, like a really instant rapport with, um, uh, with the parents and like that's continued to this day.
Jenn: How, I, I, there is an added, um, part of this that You mentioned, and I'm, I'm curious if we could go more into because not only are you, you're meeting people that are, are raising your child that may look like you, yet it could be very, very different because of the way they may raise a child could be very different to, uh, the way you may raise a child, but, and I do want to touch on that.
Jenn: And. Um, just to put it out loud. So that way, hopefully, I don't forget the follow-up question of what it's, how long ago was that, and how has it been now that you're starting your own family and doing those things, those things and like having family, like extended family, that's also connected. Cause I feel like that is something, uh, that some people, including myself, just like it's when we don't have a mental model for these.
Jenn: Like, how to conceptualize and look through it because it's, it's not the societal mental model that we've all been taught. So but first, how was it like meeting your, um, would you say your son because they're the ones raising him? Or would you say, um, your family? Like how
Miki: So it's difficult in this case because, like, I love them, like, we love them, we treat them as part of our family, like, they, I mean, they are our extended family.
Miki: Um, but that was a choice that we made. That was not, that's not because of, there's a biological connection that we think of in that way. Um, there are, like I said, there are other families that I've donated to that have not reached out and may never reach out. And, you know, that's okay, like, that is, that is their choice.
Miki: Um, I would not refer to any of those children as my children, like, as far as I'm concerned, the act of parenting is the act of, like, raising children, and sheltering them, and teaching them about the world, and all the things that we do with our daughter. Um, and the biological contribution is, like, it's weird, like, we talk about, like, my DNA, or my biology, or my genetics, but, like, the difference between, like, my genetics and my parents' genetics is, like, a handful of mutations.
Miki: It's not large. It's not my genetics. Like, I got it from them, and they got it from them, right? And so, um, it's sort of weird to me that we feel so proprietary about, like, my genetics and my special genetics. Like, there's no, it's not that special, right? Like, it's just, like, it all came from somebody else, right?
Miki: Like, there's something that, there's very little that is unique about our, about our genetics, like, to each individual person. Like, it's a tiny fraction. We talk about how, um, you know, we have a 90-something percent overlap genetically with chimpanzees. Right. Or like with, with more distant, uh, with more distant relatives, right?
Miki: When you look at like the difference between like individual people genetically. Uh, particularly like them and like a family member, it is so small, like it is so tiny. And so, like for me to claim, uh, for me to claim that like a child happens, like is my child in some kind of profound sense because of that genetic connection, like it doesn't feel right to me.
Miki: Like it feels like that's, that's, if that were correct, then like my parents could claim that child as their grandchild. Because that, that doesn't feel right. It means that like the great-grandparents could claim that child was like their great-grandchild. Like none of this feels right to me, you know?
Miki: Like there is a family that is raising that child, and that family has a family structure, and that is the family of that child. So, um, in this particular case, and I think one of the things that we struggle with here, and something that I struggle with a lot in, um, uh, in, in the work that I do about trying to bring, uh, donors together, is like just what words to use here.
Miki: Right. The parent is so overloaded. And so, um, the like one piece of feedback that I got about um, uh, the way that, that you know, I was trying to bring families together was from a single mom who was actually quite upset with some of the language that we were using in the process of signing up donors, where we were talking about, um, biological parents.
Miki: or possibly genetic parents versus like the family members. And we were trying to, um, prioritize the idea of like the family, the family members, they're more important than the biological parent, right? Because the family was involved in raining in raising them. But her point of view was that she really didn't like that language.
Miki: Like from her point of view, her children have one parent and it's her full stop. Right. And for her to see. On the website that some that she was being asked to describe somebody else as being a parent of her embryos to donate was actually really confronting for her like that is not the way that she thought about it.
Miki: And so we don't really have normalized language around this that everybody accepts. Right? So different people know different things. Certainly, um, uh, my in-laws, for example, when they found out that I was a droner, like, they've also met this family and, you know, also, um, you know, share our feelings about them.
Miki: But they also, like, started out by saying, like, that this is, this is, you know, your child. And, you know, we talked that through, and we corrected it, and, you know, we're joining the agreement. Like, they too have a history of having, you know, adopted children. And they, like, they understand from that point of view that there is that distinction between, like, Being a parent and like the biology of a child, um, and yet even there, like we trip ourselves up because like we've programmed, um, so much of the language around this into ourselves that it just, it just comes out like we reach for it so naturally just like you did when you referred to this person as my child, right?
Miki: Like that's a natural thing to say, but it's not true, right? Like I just, I don't think it's true in the way that it is. for like if you refer to my daughter as my child. Um, and again, I think this is one of these things where, um, uh, all conversations like about queer fertility or about non-traditional fertility even are starting on, are starting on the back foot.
Miki: And to be clear, um, these challenges are not just about queer fertility. There are straight couples that also require, um, donors because of like, um, male factor, infertility, they might, they might need a sperm donor. And if they are If they are fortunate, there may be a close family member that will be that, you know, wants to be a donor and they have like a good relationship with them and so on.
Miki: But for a lot of families like they have their infertility journey is just like really rough. It's traumatic. It's expensive. It's psychologically difficult. And they reach a point after like years of trying and years of disappointment and stress where the next step is to, um, is to try with a donor. And that's just like, it is, it is so hard for them, right?
Miki: It's so hard for a lot of people because they're so, um, they identify so strongly with the idea that parenting is about being a biological parent, right? And so it's so confronting for them to face, well, if I want to have a child, if I want to start a family, then I will not be a biological parent of that family.
Miki: That is like a real thing for people to come to terms with.
Jenn: With donation and like with embryos and you have your sperm, uh, donation and egg donation, like you talk a lot about embryo donation versus like adoption or those type of relationships. And I'm curious if you can unpack what you're doing with. Embryo donations, but why is it embryo donations and connecting there instead of connecting with the sperm donor and the egg donor, for example, like, especially because like in the U.
Jenn: S. In the U. S. Like, you know, if you have an egg donor or a sperm donor, it. Those can be very financially driven. So you may not want to know them, you know, because they were doing it just for money, maybe possibly there's a lot that can go into that, but with an embryo donation, it was. It's intentional for people to create this embryo and how do you clarify the differences when wanting to connect and focus on embryo donation instead of the, um, egg and sperm donation?
Miki: So I'm telling my personal experience here. So
Miki: as a gamete donor, when I was a sperm donor, um, I was excited to find out what happened next. Right now, also, I was 20 years younger, so let's be clear, like, this is very different me, but, um, I was, I was perfectly willing to let the clinic make the decisions, right, about who I would be matched for as a donor, and, like, let the chips fall as they may, like, will we know the resulting child, will we not, like, let's leave the doors open, like, I just want to help, and I want to help, and that's sort of like a more distant relationship, Right.
Miki: And I am, like, totally delighted that we have a closer relationship with one of the families. And it's okay that we don't have any relationship or any contact with the other families. Like, that's fine. That is, like, their choice to make because they are the parents and they can make those decisions. Um, but for embryo donation, I have found this to be, like, immeasurably harder as a process, and I'm not sure why, uh, I'm not sure whether it's because it's me, like, I'm, you know, that much older, uh, and that, you know, that just changes my perspective on things, I don't know if it's because I now have my own family, and so I have a much larger perspective.
Miki: more sharpened appreciation of, um, what these relationships are. Uh, like, it is, it is one of these, like, you can't explain it, you can't explain it to people, but like, as an example, after I became a parent, which is, you know, which happened now, not then, right? But as a result of having, of having children, I am not able to watch Movies or stories in which children are harmed.
Miki: Like, I just can't do it. It horrifies me at like a visceral level. Whereas, you know, before that, you know, children being harmed or like, possessed in horror movies or whatever, like that's just a standard trope, right? Like children are used in various ways in, uh, you know, as plot devices. Right? And now I absolutely, like, I just cannot stomach, like, it physically revolves me when I see that.
Miki: Like, I cannot do it. I was not expecting that as a consequence, right? But becoming a parent changed me at, like, a surprising level, like, at a fundamental level. And so, is that the reason why I find it? The idea of, um, why I just, I want to have so much more input and control over who we donate embryos to.
Miki: Maybe that's what it is. Is it that the embryos that we donate are the siblings, like any children that result from them will be siblings to my daughter?
Jenn: Because they're, um, yeah. And to backtrack us a little bit, uh, In case it's not said, I believe we said it, but, uh, you and your wife went through IVF.
Miki: Right. Correct. Um, so. We're a queer family. Most queer families don't get to be the biological parents of their children. We are. Like, that makes us unusual in these contexts. But yes, it is. That is true.
Jenn: Okay. So you created, you two created these embryos. So yes, they could be siblings of your daughter genetically.
Jenn: Exactly. And, and so that's also, I think, an added reason why thinking about the embryos literally could have, it could have been any of them. That were specifically, um, came, uh, went through the cycle to be born. And how, how do you, before we talk about the adoption process and our donation process, excuse me, um, how do we.
Jenn: How did you feel about having those other embryos out there? Like, they're just out there ready at a moment's notice. You could ask for another embryo, right? Like, how does that work in knowing that they're out there?
Miki: Um,
Miki: I'm not, I'm trying to, I'm trying to grapple the question. Do you mean like, how do I feel about the idea of donating them as opposed to using them?
Jenn: Um, I'm going to go with, because this, I, I, I feel like this does happen to a lot. Like, it's more commonly known, this is a topic we definitely need to discuss more and I'm glad we're, we've talked about doing more on this, uh, for queer fertility, but, um, so where I'm thinking right now, just to get my head around it, uh, is if you, when I think about a, uh, straight couple that are just trying to get pregnant and they go through IVF and they finally have an embryo that sticks.
Jenn: And they have a lot of leftover embryos. I think a lot of people don't think about what happens to those embryos because they finally got that child. Um, so with that, that, that's just the way I'm able to explain it at the moment. So please bear with me not having the greatest example, um, but
Miki: Let me give you one piece of the puzzle that maybe, that maybe will um, shift that a little.
Miki: When you sign the initial paperwork, um, one of the things you have to decide is what will we do with embryos that we don't use? Like that's the thing you have to decide. In case you get hit by a truck or whatever, right? So this is part of the, um, part of the contract that you always sign when you are when you are starting this process.
Miki: Like before you have any embryos. You have to make a decision. Right? Like somehow if we both like if we both die and we don't make any other decisions about the embryos what should happen and the choices that you have are to destroy them right so just discard them uh you can donate them for medical research which Sounds fancy.
Miki: Uh, it is often the case that they are used for training of embryologists rather than, you know, seeding the next great medical discovery, um, which is also very important, but it's not like it is not sometimes what people think of when they say I'm donating to research, right? Um, or you can designate a beneficiary to take, you know, legal ownership of the embryos.
Miki: Um, or you can have the clinic take ownership of them and, uh, donate them depending on the clinic. Some clinics don't offer that, but some clinics do the donation.
Jenn: Just in response to that, my initial thing is going, if somebody put me at his beneficiary, I wouldn't know what to do. I'd be like, uh, okay.
Miki: Working on with the service is basically to handle that. Like one of the requests, I guess we haven't talked about this, but the, um, the, the, the thing that I do is a service called yo embryo, which is basically a matching service for donors and families who need it. Um, and one of the things that I was asked when, uh, when this first launched was, Hey, this is super exciting, but I'm not yet ready to be a donor, but I do want, like, I do like the idea of donating, but I'm not ready to be a donor now.
Miki: What, what can you do for me now? And I was like, I, I, I, I don't know, what can I do for you? Like, this is for matching donors and recipients, like there's, if you're not ready to be a donor, like, is there anything I can do for you? And what we came up with in that conversation was that it would be, it would be useful to give people another option, right, when they're filling that in.
Miki: So the other option being, um, for people who know that they do have this altruistic desire to donate, they're not ready to do it now, but they don't want their embryos to be quote-unquote wasted. Right? If they were to, you know, if they were to die earlier than they expect, um, is to what we could do is to set up some kind of trust or some kind of thing where not ready to donate these embryos now, not ready to own them, not ready to do anything like that, but you are ready to think hypothetically about what kind of family would you be willing to donate to?
Miki: And should the wrong thing happen, right? Before you've reached that stage of being willing to donate, um, Then you would put down, like, the, the trust as a beneficiary or as the recipient of the embryos and then the trust would take on the responsibility of working with your family, working with your wishes to find the, um, to find, like, the, the right family to donate to.
Miki: Now that's sort of getting, like, extra weird because we're now in sort of like a morbid, an extra morbid phase of this, of this conversation and Yeah. Like, all of this, like, we're talking about life and death. Right. And it's just like life and death in the intersection with like The, the, like the legal world, and it just, it all gets super weird, right?
Jenn: Um, to take us back to the, uh, just something that I want to ask you on another episode is like, what happens if you give embryos to the, um, to the clinic and they're able to do whatever they want? Because like, I, I'm very curious. We don't have to talk about this right now because in my mind, I'm like, those could be going to like to create a subspecies or something. I think I listened to too much and watch too much sci fi. But, um, so I'm going to pause on my sidetrack there. But like, now that we know what the options are and You, you having to go through the process before your, um, company created like the other option, uh, what, what did you choose and how did you figure that out?
Jenn: Because like, what did you think about what would happen? I guess in this process, when did you feel, Oh, I want to have more of an input on these embryos.
Miki: Much later. So this is the other thing that there's this huge journey, what I have found is that there's this huge journey of self-discovery as well.
Miki: And you don't know what it is that you want until you're confronted with one of the possibilities for what you've chosen and you realize actually that doesn't work for me. There's something that I hadn't realized up until now is important to me. And now I want that thing that I've just discovered. to be an input into any final decision.
Miki: And that happens over and over and over again as you learn more about yourself. Um, and so when we did the paperwork initially like we didn't have a family and so we had a, um, a more abstract approach to it than I think we would take now. And so I think what we specified, we did not accept anonymous donation.
Miki: We did not accept the donation option. We weren't comfortable with that idea. Um, I think, I think we actually even said that if only one of us died, then we would prefer the embryos to be destroyed rather than to have, you know, the other, the other person have the option of like then trying to, you know, have another child from those embryos.
Miki: Um, I've like we've talked about changing that directive since because I think that no longer really reflects how we feel. Um, but it's. But it's complicated, right? Like there's just, there's just so much tied up in this and I just actually don't know that we have a um, um, that we, that my wife and I have actually been able, have taken the time to like really articulate like exactly what is it that we want and what should it look like.
Miki: In the case that, like, either one of us or both of us die, right? What should, what do we want to happen there? And in some ways, like, that's, it's also sort of obligated because I'm putting, you know, so much work into making, um, family matching work for embryo donation, that I think we're both hopeful that, as a result of that, like, we will find families that we're willing to donate to.
Miki: And that, you know, then that just obviates the whole thing. So we will, you know, we will never make more embryos. Like, that's not a thing that we have any desire to do. We don't have a desire to have any more children. And then, and so like, it is a bounded problem, right? So. If we can find families to donate to, and I'm hopeful that we will in the years to come, find families to donate to, then we're done, right?
Miki: We no longer need to worry about, like, what happens if we die.
Jenn: A follow-up question, and I'm also taking a look at time, which, I'm like, how has 40, almost 45 minutes already passed? Like, I don't even understand how that's happened, um, because, but this is a very, very complex. Um, topic that I will say my next question, but I do want to definitely put it on the table that we can pause till we record our next episode of what's the difference between adoption and donation and the matching service that you have.
Jenn: That is my next question, which before I ask that though, is Is there anything that like on this episode about your journey that would be important for that you would want to have known before we start wrapping up this episode because this is a very complex topic. So we are going to have to, um, like definitely.
Jenn: Break it up. But I want to make sure that this one is as complete as possible.
Miki: Um, I don't think so. I think we've, we've, I think we've covered everything.
Jenn: Okay. Cause I feel like the adoption versus donation part is it's like own topic. It is. We just need to break that one down and, and the next episode that we record.
Jenn: And then on that note, just recapping everything that we talked about, just to see if I have all, all of my ducks in a row. Uh, Um, starting from the endpoint, going to going backward, we talked about that when, when a couple is going to have, um, looking into something like IVF, which is where a sperm and an egg get made into a petri dish to make an embryo, um, That when couples go to look at that, this is whether or not they are straight couples or queer couples, they have multiple options of what happens to these embryos.
Jenn: So they can either, um, and this is before the entire process even starts. This is, they can either. destroy them. Um, when they're done, they can, uh, have a beneficiary. They can donate them to the clinic or they can donate them. This is before your, what your company is working on. And we'll, I want to talk about that more in the next episode.
Jenn: Just, just getting our basics. That's where we're at, but what got you to that journey? Now, starting from the beginning was when you were in Australia, you worked on becoming a sperm donor, and Australia law was like, yo, or you had a checkbox that said, yo, I need to be able, like people may reach out to you, but out of the families that may have had children, only one couple did.
Jenn: And you two became very, your, your families. Uh, both families became close and there has been this. Uh, paradox of what to call that relationship of, um, of the meaning behind that relationship. Because even as we were talking, I was like, so is it like an aunt or uncle kind of situation? Like just trying to conceptualize it that in my mind is going through it as well.
Jenn: Um, but seeing that. What life could be like and seeing that your donation helps a family and having that relationship. It also added to when you and your wife had, um, went through IVF and had, or had families, um, and created the embryos that you had your daughter. But during this process, it was like, what happens to these embryos?
Jenn: And you're like, We literally have embryos that could be your daughter's siblings. We want to have an idea of what it would look like. siblings might go. Um, does that kind of give us a good, like what we've covered so far overview? Sweet. Because we went through a lot of really complex, uh, situations and trying to understand it and give just like a brief overview of it.
Jenn: Because I feel like this is still not like, there's still so much that goes into it. Yeah. Now. Before, uh, we completely start wrapping up, um, the big question of, do you have words of wisdom either for your past self or for like people going through this or just like a quote or something that really helps you get through the day?
Jenn: Do you have any good vibes to share?
Miki: I think I would just encourage people to think about becoming donors. Like, it is a, um, it is a, it is not a small thing. It is a big thing to be a donor. Um, but it lays, uh, it lays groundwork for a future, right? And I think that, particularly, folks who are, folks who are most fertile in their, you know, twenties.
Miki: The younger you are, the more fertile you are. Like, it is a rough approximation. And typically that's a time when people are not ready for families. And they're not really thinking about starting families. Uh, and I think it is a really interesting time to think about, um, nonetheless being able to take advantage of the fact that your, your fertility is at its best, and you should think about how to plan around that, because in the future, maybe you already know that you want to have a family, maybe you don't, maybe you already have a big family throughout the world that you're really close with, or maybe you are in a position where you're not close with any family, And, uh, you are in a world, which is true of a lot of queer people, um, where chosen family is your closest family.
Miki: Um, and you have an opportunity to, I don't know, it's like sending a gift to yourself in the future, right? To the future you, uh, of having, of having the opportunity to build relationships in the future that are going to be deep and complex and incredibly meaningful through the act of donating. Now, um, and like there's no, I mean, it's not like I can guarantee those relationships are going to be uplifting and wonderful, they won't even exist, but, um, it is an, it is an opportunity to make a huge difference to people that are yearning for the chance to have a family, and it is a story that you can be a part of.
Miki: Without taking on a commitment that you're not yet ready for.
Jenn: Thank you for that. And I, as you're saying that, I'm like, dude, my twenties, I definitely did not future think in my twenties. And I wish I did just in general for so much of life. So thank you for that. And how do people reach out to you?
Miki: So you can find me, um, the, the site is https://www.yoembryo.com
Miki: com. You can email me as Miki, M I K I at yoembrio dot com. You can find me on TikTok as D R N G director. And that's probably the highest odds of reaching.
Jenn: Perfect. Thank you. And last but not least, what is something that you're grateful for?
Miki: Um, I'm grateful for my chosen family. You know, like Steffi has a brother like he's not in our family, but she refers to him as her brother and he refers to her as his sister. And even though we don't share, like neither of them share parents, like it's, you know, it's, it's beautiful and I love it. Um, and. Like, we have tried to donate to others, and it has not worked out, but we've also tried to donate to friends.
Miki: Um, and even where, um, that hasn't worked out for one reason or another, because just because you have a donor doesn't mean that you have biological compatibility, um, you've still made a decision to include people in your life as family, and that's something that sticks. You know, like, even if it doesn't work out, the thing that you're doing, like you'll still forevermore think of those people as being, you know, some closer in your heart.
Miki: Even if they're like the kind of family that you only talk to once a year, right? Like there's still, there's still something really lovely about them. And so I'm just very grateful for that. Like chosen family is really important.
Jenn: Thank you. And I would say for myself, something I'm grateful for is the idea that things can be put on pause, but it doesn't mean things have ended.
Jenn: Meaning that I, Uh, this episode is going to be one of the beginning episodes of season three, and, you know, season two didn't really happen on shit you don't want to talk about, like it just, you know, life happened. And that doesn't mean that I couldn't pick the project back up and just continuing to talk about it and meeting you at a tech conference out of.
Jenn: Anywhere. Like I talked to you about it and we connected about it and I was like, yo, I gotta get this shit back started again. Like, it, it needs to come back like this. This just needs to happen. And it's, it's learning, I would say learning to give myself the grace that just because something is paused does not mean that it ended.
Jenn: Mm-Hmm. and. Thank you so much for your kindness and your energy y'all before this episode started I was trying to explain Mickey's energy and I came out with like it's like calming and open and so I'm curious if Like how y'all might be a described mine or Mickey's energy So, please let us know because I'm like, I I don't know how to explain it, but it's like it's it feels good It's nice to be around And yeah, that's all I got today.
Jenn: So Thank you, Miki, for joining us today. And I greatly
Jenn: appreciate it.
Miki: Thank you
