Diversity in Entertainment is Shit2TalkAbout S3 EP 2
“We don’t always realize that Pop Culture does impact us and then does have an output from us in a way.”
Host of Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous, Julia Washington, joins us to talk about diversity in entertainment and how to consider representation beyond the white male narrative.
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Transcript
Julia: It's just really interesting trying to figure out who you are when pop culture tells you, well, this is what the black community is. Well, this is how Italians are. And then when you don't fit that narrative, then it's like, well, I saw on TV that black people are like this, or I listened to rap. And so what hood are you from? And you're just like, what?
Jenn: Hello, hello, beautiful human. Welcome to shit you don't want to talk about. I'm here to get the conversation started. You're here to get uncomfortable. It's your choice to be a part of the change, changing shit you don't want to talk about into shit to talk about.
Jenn: Hello, hello, beautiful humans. Welcome To Shit You don't want to talk About. I'm your host Jen Junod and today we have Jules joining us. Please introduce yourself and the shit you want to talk about today.
Julia: I'm Julia Washington Jules to many, many people. And the shit I want to talk about today, I guess falls under, under representation and, media, and, and how to, you know, consume something that isn't necessarily created for you, but also not being mad when it's not created for you, because diversity is important.
Jenn: That is a good way of saying that. That is a good way of saying that. Before, and to help people with the background too, what, what podcast do you have?
Julia: I host a show, uh, called Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous. We analyze pop culture through the lens of race or gender, and sometimes both. It is very much an entry point for people who are starting to really kind of move out of the discomfort of. Whiteness, I guess. Not that being white is uncomfortable. I'm not white.
Julia: Um, but for some people having conversations about race and gender is very uncomfortable. And I would say, I would argue it is mostly privileged by people who do. We take pop culture properties and, uh, look at them through a different lens because the people who are telling us what we are should think the cultural critics of the past have all been white men. So to have Roger Ebert tell us what to think about mean girls doesn't feel right.
Jenn: And I'm gonna go yes.
Julia R. I. P. Roger Ebert, but still, you know,
Jenn: because I don't know any of the names of people. Which is, is always Very fun.
Julia: Yeah. And he was a huge, I mean, he's a Pulitzer prize-winning, um, journalist who had a major career as a film critic, but also what we've learned on our show is that there's a lot of stuff as a white man, he just didn't get.
Julia: And so he would pan things and you're just like, no, this is a huge. Cultural movie for the black community or for women or what have you. And it was just like, Roger Ebert, like, bless. I'm so glad you won a Pulitzer prize, but also you were kind of not challenged because they weren't hiring black people at the Chicago sun times.
Jenn: That is fair enough. That is fair enough. Something, um, I, I already told you that I'm going to bring her up. So I'll just bring her up now. I've, I like how you talked about that. Your, your show is like an entry for these conversations. Um, Whitney, uh, Knoxley is somebody that you're doing an episode with, and all I will be as well.
Jenn: And I'm really excited about this. She mentioned to me, um, when she heard about my podcast, she's like, it's when people can eavesdrop on a conversation and learn about it without having the uncomfortable. situation of, uh, you know, being there in the moment. And I was like, that is such a good way of saying things. I wish I learned that. So I just, it made me think the same thing on, on your show, because that's uncomfortable. Conversations aren't fun.
Julia: They're not. And we're not trained. I mean, when you're not, when you're a person of color, you just live in it. Right? Like, that's just how you have to exist because your entire life, regardless of whether or not you're having a great day, something about your existence is going to offend somebody.
Julia: So now we're suddenly in a situation. And when there is that, you know, cloak of whiteness that people can live in. They don't experience it in the same way. And so when you bring that up, it's like, well, I'm not privileged. I don't have money. And, you know, that conversation was sort of what we were having in 2016.
Julia: And we've unpacked that further now. And it was really important for me to take sort of those elementary concepts and make it in bite sizes. chunks that people could really chew on and then get deeper. And, you know, we direct people when they ask to things where it's like, no, you can get deeper in this area.
Julia: Um, and we do that too in our private community. We'll get deeper in a lot of stuff. Like we facilitate a book club. And we get real deep, real educational in that book club.
Jenn: All right. That sounds like a book club I want to check out. And before we go too much further into this, something that I think would be interesting to call out.
Jenn: And, uh, for those of you listening, like, unless you're like looking at the app and As long as I properly uploaded, you know, um, each, uh, guest, like, photo, because apparently I didn't do that for a while. Uh, you don't know, you're going off of someone's voice. You don't know exactly who we're talking to, what they look like, anything like that.
Jenn: And an interesting comment that you, you made earlier, Jules, was, um, you're not white. And I, something that we had, uh, on a part of the intro call was some people might say that you are. And so to get some clarity there, what do you identify as and how has that experience been being identified by others?
Julia: It's so interesting because of the identity question. I feel like my identity is constantly changing. Four weeks ago, what I would have said about myself was so different than what I would say this week because I've gone through a major growth spurt emotionally and personally. With that said, the constant that is true is that I am biracial. My father is Black. My mother is Italian. And those are the, the two cultures from the beginning that have informed my identity. As I mentioned before we started recording, my brother and I do not look anything alike. No one ever believes that my brother is my sibling. People look at me depending on how my hair is, and make assumptions based on what they take in based on my appearance and that's been a mindfuck It's really the only way I can put that Because it really is telling about someone else's life experience how they take me in is very very telling and there have been a lot of times in life where people have said how dare you care about Black stuff?
Julia: It doesn't affect you and you're just like that's cute. Thanks for telling me who you are. I am now aware and will leave the room. Um, and then on the other hand too, it's, it's, I benefit from light-skinned privilege. I benefit from being some version of a chameleon so I can go into spaces that are normally closed off to my darker sisters, but I can also be the voice that's like, Hey, can we not?
Julia: Like, we need to be more aware of how we're speaking to communities that aren't white. Like, let's check your privil like, like, not even just check your privilege, let's like check your prejudice too. Um, and it's, it's interesting because I go through this experience regularly where I have people questioning.
Julia: My confidence and it's like, are you questioning my confidence because you don't want women to be confident and feel good about what they do and feel secure in what they do? Or are you questioning my confidence because black people aren't supposed to be confident? We're supposed to always be submissive and in some sort of like secondary role that is submissive to you.
Julia: Um, I had an experience this weekend. So I'm an artist. I paint and I write, and I'm really leaning into the visual medium of, with watercolor because
Jenn: And your Instagram link is? Instagram name.
Julia: Um, Julia Washington productions. No, that's wrong. It's Julia M. It's Julia M. Hold on. Listen. I was like, I can't come up with anything clever because life in clever handles and making an official business.
Julia: Government scares me. So, oh, it's juliamwproductions.
Jenn: Okay, because I know I need that art. So please continue. Sorry.
Julia: And so I put my art on great on cards so people can, you know, mail a little sunshine and it's accessible because art in a lot of ways isn't accessible. And I had this little old lady, bless her heart.
Julia: She is white. Come up to me and say, Oh, your cards are beautiful. And there's signs everywhere saying they're 5 hand-painted greeting cards, 5. Thank you so much. And she said, Gosh, if they weren't so expensive, I'd buy a whole bunch for my church. And I was like, okay, don't go to Hallmark, don't go to Target.
Julia: And then the rest of the day, I was like, did she say that to me because I'm, I'm Brown? Did she say that because she's just, you know, a tight, financially tight person? And that's not something that my best friend has to worry about thinking, like, she's not going to assume, Oh, someone said that to me because I'm Brown because my best friend's white.
Julia: So it's things like that, where you're just like, I don't know why. I don't know why you said that and now I'm gonna spiral and like, did I, did I look too black today? Like, you know, it's like little things like that. And so, um, it's just really interesting trying to figure out who you are to type back into pop culture when pop culture tells you, well, this is what the black community is.
Julia: Well, this is how Italians are. And then when you don't fit that narrative, then it's like, Well, I saw on TV that Black people are like this, or I listen to rap, and so, what hood are you from? And you're just like, what? You know we're not all the same, right? Like, what?
Jenn: Something I want to call out to you is, as you're telling me about this, this, this, I picture her as a little old white lady. Um,
Julia: I mean, she had to been five feet tall.
Jenn: I was like, well, I haggle with everybody. Like I'm like, if I buy like five of these, can I have them for 20 instead of for 25? Like that is my instinct. But I want to call myself out on this because it was almost like, I just went to defense. I went to go like. I want to say that I do that to everybody on whoever the opposing side is.
Jenn: I don't know if I do that. It could honestly be, well, I'm subconsciously going, Well, let me defend this little white lady and, you know, try to fix it. It is not my job to fix, it is my job to listen. And I just want to call that out right now because Something that I'm, I'm curious how you talked about how others like trying to figure out your own identity and reeling in, like having to deal with others are putting on you.
Jenn: Me trying to solve it for you is also putting an identity to you as well. How has your identity evolved with all of these things like coming at you?
Julia: You know, it's been really interesting because I think. For all of the faults that exist within my family, something that my parents have always been really good at doing is when we are struggling in those ways, they, they do sort of have this moment of like, we got you like the world is trash.
Julia: That's, that's what they think. And we know that that's not you. And just, you know, remind yourself that who you are, do the dig, do the deep inner look at yourself, and remind yourself that it's not about you, it's about them. And I think that's huge. And having that sort of, having that connection, and it was a bigger, it was a bigger circle that we could rally around to when my grandparents were alive and my aunt was alive and my cousin lived in the same community because then we could just come together as a family and.
Julia: have this breath of relief of like, this is who we are. This is how we exist. No one's questioning it. No one's wondering anything. We just all make sense. So when you're mixed, like I am, you have to like build that community in a way, right? For me, it's naturally built-in because my family did a really good job of doing that.
Julia: But when I'm out in the world, it is really hard to find that and to build that. Like I mentioned earlier, my best friend's white, and there are times when it's just like, I just can't talk to you today. Love you deeply. Love you dearly. But I'm having this experience that your advice is bad. I can't do that because the consequences for me are not the same as they are for you.
Julia: And helping her understand that is definitely been a 20-year process. Um, and she's definitely better at it now than when, you know, 20 years ago when we were teenagers. And so it's, it's, it's hard to stay strong in who you are when there's all this messaging in the world about who you're supposed to be, and then add the layer of who you are supposed to be in terms of race and ethnicity.
Julia: Um, and for me, to answer a question, for me, it really has been, recently building that outer community because eventually my parents will pass away and you know, eventually it's going to be I need. to not be so emotionally reliant on them when it comes to like, I need to feel better because the world yelled at me today.
Julia: Um, and I think finding more folks who are mixed, regardless of what their mix is, has been a really healing process as well, because while our experiences are Very different. There's a lot of commonality in there as well. That's kind of like, Oh, I, I didn't know that you also, okay, let's trauma bond over that.
Julia: This is great, which is not funny, but I'm laughing because it's one of those moments when you're like, I've been alone my whole life. I only have my siblings to rely on. And then like, Oh, you too. Like, wow.
Jenn: I, yeah. I appreciate you going into that because it's definitely something that this is stuff that you're open and talking about and I so appreciate that it's, it's something that, and this is just like an FYI reminder to everybody that listening to this, yo, don't go over to your mixed friend and start asking them all these questions.
Jenn: Do not put this emotional burden on them. Um, this is something that Jules, Jules. Is open about coming on the show and talking about sharing a bit of their, your, your experience with them, something that, that came to mind was we talk a lot about the way that entertainment has changed over time. And you brought this up right before we jumped on this call and I was just like.
Jenn: Wait, what? Uh, can you tell us a, a bit about, um, uh, well, I guess I'll, I'll take like three steps back because I get excited and I try to jumble them all together? Um, there was a part that you mentioned in the intro about, um. working through things when you don't see your own representation and learning to be, work through that discomfort.
Jenn: And I'm curious if you could go a bit more into that and what you meant there.
Julia: Yeah, so Immediately, my first thought is, is I've always had to be the kid who's had to find things, see things a little differently in entertainment to find things relatable. Um, so for example, Anne of Green Gables, she's an orphaned redhead, like she's freckled redhead, but her love of reading was a thing where it's like, Oh, I identify with that.
Julia: Like that I can get anything else about her life. I don't, I don't know. You know, it's like, it's an, it's a, it's an imaginary world that I have to live in. That's a basic, right? That's a basic example. There are things about the entertainment industry that Are deeply uncomfortable because they're creating two-dimensional or even one-sided characters.
Julia: Um, while some of them were groundbreaking, for example, the Jeffersons or, um. Oh my gosh, I see the, I see the opening intro in my mind and it's not the Jeffersons. It's another show. Um, all Norman Lear productions in the seventies, groundbreaking because we've never, you know, we'd never seen black people on TV in that way.
Julia: But then also it's like, but I don't identify with that version of blackness because that's not. I don't see my grandparents in those characters. I don't see my dad or my aunts or my cousins in those characters. And so like, I don't understand why people are telling me that this is weird, that this is my family is the way that it is because we should be like this particular, um, family from television or this movie or like.
Julia: Boys in the Hood's another great, it's a great film. It's just one story, but that's also different because that's, um, the, the director and writer is a black man who, who wrote the story versus. Norman Lear telling the story, who is a white man who just recently passed, um, made it to the ripe age of 100.
Julia: And so I think when we have stories that aren't told by us and for us, it makes it really hard for people to fully grasp that there is dimension in communities of color and communities that are maybe LGBTQ. Not everything is trauma. Not everything is, um, uncomfortable. But when you're watching something that doesn't feel dimensional, it can be really hard.
Julia: I don't even know if that answers your question.
Jenn: It, it, uh, it, it brings up more questions, but I think what you've said does answer A little bit.
Julia: So like, like for me, when the Cosby show started, I was an infant, but when I got old enough to register the television show and I understand, you know, this is not a good person, the television show in itself, my grandparents were his parents.
Julia: Love jazz, jazz musicians, spent time in jazz clubs, loved art, were very much polished. Like, you don't leave the house, like my grandfather did not leave the house unless he was in a three-piece suit. Like, we, it was, everybody goes to college. Like, we are, like, this is, this to me was like, oh, this feels like what I'm used to.
Julia: Like, this is what my family is like. Um, versus, and I wish I could remember the TV show name. I can see it in my head. They worked in a junkyard and like, I just can't remember the name.
Jenn: It's going to, you're asking the wrong person who knows, like,
Julia: we're going to be done. We're going to be done with this recording.
Julia: I'm going to Google it and be like, Oh, that's what it is. And then I'm going to listen to this and be like, you idiot. Yelling at the radio, being like, it's the show. Um, But then you had like a show like Family Matters where the dad's a cop and I was like, Mm, that also feels right. Cause my dad was a cop.
Julia: So it's like, it's like these little nuggets that we get, but then you get away from this area of like, having black representation, right? Like if it's not fitting into this narrative of what we think black people should be, we're not going to produce it. Um, telling people what, what they want to see versus like actually listening, listening to them about what they want to see.
Julia: And I think the other side of that coin. So we, as a non-white community have to watch millions of stories with well-developed characters that are flawed and complicated and nuanced, rooted in European lineage, and the same grace isn't given to communities of color. We are starting to see it now. We're seeing it more now, like Rez Dogs, which is great.
Julia: It's on Hulu. Taika Waititi is behind it. You know, I'm Issa Rae with Insecure, like such a great show. So we're getting a little bit more of it now, but think about when those shows were released. And then, and then they don't get to last very long, right? It's like, oh, maybe you get two seasons. I mean, we got four seasons of Insecure, which is great, but I think Reservation Dogs only got two seasons, maybe three.
Julia: Another, you know, another show that Ysa Rae did called Rap Shit just got canceled. Brilliant show, nuanced, layered characters, there's so much to mention to them, and it got cut at the knees, and you're just like, why? But why though? Like, we have to sit through. So many TV shows about white men having existential crises.
Julia: It's the same shit. You can't make that unique. I'm sorry. Like there's no, there's nothing unique about it. We've exhausted that story. Like, give us something else.
Jenn: Something that, that, that just came to mind that, um, thinking about. How you talked about how non-white people have had to watch so many white shows, it's, it's like, and, and I've experienced this myself, where if I'm watching a, um, like watching Beef,
Julia: Mmm, great show.
Jenn: I fucking loved Beef, like, my mind still hurts from that movie, and it was such, er, TV show, and it, um, my brain hurts, and it's so good. It's almost like, It's taboo watching, um, a show that doesn't match with my story, like, meaning that, and by my story, I mean, like, somebody that, there's not a person there that doesn't look like me, and, and when we talked about the uncomfortableness, that's, I feel like that's what it is.
Jenn: I was picking up, um, in, in the fact of getting through that discomfort of they may not look like me, but it's TV. Like, it's not like it's a hidden thing. Like, it's not bad if I watch it. It's not, there's. I'm not going to get in trouble for loving Insecure.
Julia: Like, yeah. And I think with, especially with the Beef example, because I'm also not a person of Asian descent, it's, there's still elements that are relatable and Ali Wong's character and Steven Yuen's character.
Julia: So you're giving us the same sort of experience that you're giving the experience to non-Asian communities that non, that us non-white folks have experienced since the dawning of entertainment, being able to jump into a story, find areas of relatability, but then it still has elements of the culture in it that are true versus, you know, caricatures and stereotypes, which is often what we saw in the early days of television and movies.
Julia: And, you know, Beef had such a relatable story, right? It's like, who hasn't suffered from road rage in some way? Granted, this Escalated.
Jenn: Um, y'all just, like, no spoilers, go watch Beef, like that's all I got is go watch Beef. Like you, I don't, I don't know if you can explain that one to people just in general.
Julia: No, it's just so good. Ali Wong won the Golden Globe and the Emmy and it was absolutely well deserved for that show. Um, but that's a great example, you know, another example, I recently had a guest on for a book episode where we discussed, um, the book-to-screen adaptation of Leave the World Behind. And the book and the screen are
Julia: very different, but not really. The character of Amanda, played by Julia Roberts, is different in the movie than she is in the book. And my guest, who is a, you know, middle-class white woman, older Millennial had made a comment. She was like, I had to accept that this character in the movie is unlikable and I had to work through that.
Julia: And I had to, and I had to remind myself, this isn't a personal attack on me, who is also a, you know, middle-class white lady. And I, and that, I thought, thank you for saying that because so many people see representation when we paint people in certain lights and just immediately go on the defense, right?
Julia: Like how you mentioned earlier, you're like, Oh, I kind of want to defend the little old white lady. That's, that's kind of what I'm talking about. Like, we don't have the luxury to be on defense when it comes to poor representation. We're starting to vocalize it now. I say we, I'm not making television personally, but I do, I do culturally review it.
Julia: So it's now that we're in the game a little bit, not as much, not on equal footing, but it, you know, we're in charge a little bit more of our stories now that that exists. It's like. you know, with my guests saying, Oh, I have to sort of walk through my discomfort of like, that's not the kind of middle-class woman I am.
Julia: But then she got to the other side and it was amazing. And that's kind of what it is, right? Like we don't have the luxury to be flawed, to be nuanced, to be difficult, to be any of these things in entertainment. So it's almost like the medium of entertainment for non-white communities is still in its early stages because we're not allowed to have three-dimensional things.
Julia: And then when we get three-dimensional things, they're brilliant. And they do things like win awards like beef and it's so powerful. And that. That desire is there, it's just the people at the top making the decisions don't necessarily want to see it.
Jenn: Thank you so much for, for having the conversation and what we've talked about so far, just like your own experiences, but also helping people along the way to the journey of understanding what the uncomfortableness can be and how to work through it and identify it.
Jenn: And yet. I just want to say that we've spent half an hour going through this point, because it is really hard for people to go, Oh, hey, it has been this way my entire life. Now I'm seeing it portrayed a different way instead of just turning it away and actually digging deeper. And I. I mean, if you're cool with it, I'd, I'd rather not talk about it anymore.
Jenn: Cause I feel like it's taken up enough time.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. We can, we can happily move on.
Jenn: And I appreciate you going there. Something that did really, that you, you called out earlier is that there are a lot of movies and TV shows and so much of media that can be a story from someone that doesn't identify as white.
Jenn: Written, directed, played by a white man. And. Can you share a bit more of when that has shown up and also where we may identify it ourselves?
Julia: So the biggest example I can give is the most notorious example with Sixteen Candles and the character of Long Duck Dong. And that character is a caricature. Um, however, at the time, the actor has since said that, you know, he was just so excited to be in a movie.
Julia: He was excited to finally get a job and totally get it. But that movie is written by John Hughes, who is, um, you know, famous for movies like Breakfast Club. Home Alone, Ferris Bueller's Day Off, he's an 80s darling, um, but it, it, it, that particular representation did have a real-life impact in a negative way for people of Asian descent and we talk about it in my 16 Candles episode, so I don't have the data points fresh in my head, but if you're curious about the data points, it is in that episode.
Julia: Um, you know, there's, there's an accusation against Norman Lear who Of another man, I don't know how valid it is, I haven't done deep research, but there is a man by the name of Eric Monte, who is saying like, no, Norman Lear stole my ideas. These TV shows that have given him, you know, this sort of like prominence in television, they were mine, he stole them from me, like, what?
Julia: No. And, and I think too, there's a level of whitewashing that happens as well. But, you know, that's a whole separate conversation that we could have on a completely different day.
Jenn: Really quick, please, please correct me on this because I don't think this is a good definition. I'm just going to Google it. Um, so that way Google tells us what.
Jenn: What is whitewashing, which I think that is a big thing that yes, uh, we will talk about it on this show at some point. Um, and we're not talking about the paint, uh, because the first one is paint a wall building or room with whitewash. Wow, that is, um, very specific. Um, but the definition number two is deliberately attempt to conceal unpleasant or incriminating facts about someone or something.
Jenn: Um, most sources prefer to ignore or whitewash the most is. Derby an aspect of such reports and I'm like, I would even go a step further. Uh, sorry, I interrupted you.
Julia: No, that's okay. I would say another layer to that too, is casting white characters in roles that were not originally written as white. So an adaptation of a comic book or a book itself, you know, they cast like, um, in the Marvel universe, they cast Tilda, uh, Tilda, I'm forgetting her last name, it's not great, um, as, you know, one of the characters in, in, for Doctor Strange's storyline and in the comic books, that character's not white. Tilda's, Swinton, I want to say maybe is what her name is, is white, well, she's a white woman,
Jenn: You got it.
Julia: I got there. Um, she is a white woman. And so like, that's an example. And then, you know, um, so there's just this whole sort of concept of like, okay, how can we make it, you know, less painful for people. Meanwhile, you know, I'm standing in the corner being told from television and movies. Anyway, it doesn't matter, but you know, it's, it's, it's, it's.
Julia: Who's in charge of telling that story? Whose responsibility is it? Do you have lived experience? And there's an age-old debate of like, well, isn't storytelling, like it's an imagination. And isn't that the whole point of being able to weave a story? And it's like, yes. And if you don't have the lived experience of what it's like to be treated poorly for being an Asian man.
Julia: Maybe consult somebody about that character and work with somebody, or don't write the character as Asian. Like, make sure your writer's room has the representation that you'd like to see so they can chime in and say things like, you know, we don't, we don't, that's not part of our culture. Why are you trying to write it into the story?
Julia: The cast of Blackish talks about that. There had been, there were a handful of writers that they would have to talk, was it Blackish? I, I forget which, I'm saying Blackish, but it might have been a different TV show with an all-Black cast. But they basically had to say the right, like, children wouldn't, like, Black children would never talk to their parents this way.
Julia: Like, you would not find that in the community. Um, the actors had to say that because the writers were not in the lived experience of raising Black children and being in the Black community. Um, so it's things like that, where it's like, if your goal is to tell the story of a Black family or an Asian group of friends or Insert non-white group here and you are not a part of that group It's probably not your story to tell but we're still rewarding those people.
Julia: American Dirt is another example In in that regard. It's a book that came out a handful of years ago. It's an immigration story People argue it's like trauma porn and not actually helping the narrative of immigration. The woman doesn't have lived experience. Her, it's, I think a grandparent of hers is of Latin, Latino, or Latina descent.
Julia: She's removed from the community in that way. And she received 1. 2 million in an advance for this book. Meanwhile, it's hard for Um, you know, Latino writers to get published. So it's, that's the whole part of the conversation, right? It's like, who's telling the story? How are they telling the story? What are we rewarding in those arenas?
Jenn: And thank you for going into this because it's. It's something that I know I've been like, okay, if somebody tells me a story, I can retell it just so that way it goes, it can get out there. And yes, I can be, uh, a megaphone yet. That's not the same. It will never be the same.
Julia: Right. And I think too, part of it is like, Hey, here's the story I heard.
Julia: Here's the gist of my understanding, but here's where you can find the original story. Like, Oh, she talked about it on our TikTok. So like, here's her handle, go listen to her, you know, from her, her firsthand experience. I think that's a. better way of doing it than you making a TikTok and being like, Oh my God, this thing happened to somebody I know.
Julia: You know what I mean? I think that's the biggest of American fiction also talks about this great movie, Oscar-nominated, well deserved based on a book, but it calls into question of like, what kind of stories are we publishing and why?
Jenn: And, and that, that makes me think about, and something I feel like a lot of people don't think about is When was the first time you saw representation that you remember in a tv show or movie?
Julia: And that's a huge part of my show we take These and that's why we look at a lot of stuff in the past. That's why Sixteen Candles came up because it was like this is a huge rom-com classic Jake Ryan dreamy But then you pull back the layers and you're just like oh shit This really informed what I believe about love This really informed what I believed about like relationships with my friends, like this is not okay.
Julia: Um, and I, and I think we don't always realize that pop culture does impact us and then does have an output from us in a way.
Jenn: Something that I, um, that I, I love about your show is people can actually go through and Find a show that they're curious about and, uh, on your site, it's searchable, which is really cool because it makes it so if someone's curious about like the 16 candles in the episode, um, but let's say they didn't realize what episode, it's something that they can go into dig deeper.
Jenn: And it's because these are such. Very layered issues. Like this is not something that is, uh, it's not just an issue in media. It's an, it's a systemic issue. And, and I love that you are going through and unpacking it and taking the time to educate others and also. Showing that there can be that representation out there, um, that things are changing.
Jenn: Are there, are there people that you're aware of or that you can, you want to highlight that are a big part of the change here? Um, I know you mentioned earlier Insecure. I think I just keep going to shows that I've heard of. So, or I've watched them. So, um, I'm sure there's more of. Things that are, you're seeing that are starting to change the future.
Julia: Well, Issa Rae is definitely making waves and an impact in that way, which is amazing. Her work is so good. Um, Insecure is such an amazing show and I was very sad when it ended. I'm not gonna lie. Um, but I think when we look at some of the younger generations too, I, I'm not sure in terms of like who's coming up now, but I think There's a lot more of a concentrated effort.
Julia: Lena Waithe has a partnership with Indeed to support young filmmakers, uh, specifically black filmmakers to tell stories and they're producing some really interesting stuff. I think that in terms of like, If you want a deeper education about what you can do to sort of dismantle what the stereotypes and caricatures are because like I said, we're sort of an entry point for people.
Julia: Maximum Film is a really good one. They have really interesting conversations. Um. There's a podcast called Black Men Can't Jump, and it's, you know, they talk about Hollywood movies. Vibe Check is really good as well in terms of like, you know, if you're more of a NPR type person, I would say Code Switch is a really good one.
Julia: They do dive into some pop culture stuff from time to time. And again, if you're an NPR person, Pop Culture Happy Hour does a really good job. I don't always agree with them, but what I appreciate about what they do, for example, with American Fiction, the entire panel was, um, Black broadcasters, which I think changes the conversation because American Fiction is about a Black writer who is struggling to get published.
Julia: And he basically writes this book that is like every stereotype you could possibly think of in his mind. In his mind, it's every stereotype of the Black community could possibly think of. Submits it under a fake name and everyone's salivating for it. Like they're offering him millions of dollars for this book.
Julia: So to have a panel in pop culture happy hour to talk about this movie of all Black broadcasters makes a big difference on how the conversation goes Versus if it was their standard issue, you know, white voices from NPR. Yes, yes. And I love that they do that. I love that, they're like, “who's relevant for this conversation?” Who's got skin in the game that we should talk to?
Jenn: I love that. And thank you. And I know that we've, we've covered a lot today and. There is a few different parts that I'm thinking about digging deeper, but before doing that, is there something that you specifically wanted to cover today that we haven't yet?
Julia: I think I might've touched on it a little bit, but I think, I think it's that point of, you know, if it's making you uncomfortable, examine why. Because there's, there's a lot of stuff out there and not like it's making you uncomfortable, like not the way that like Saltburn made us all uncomfortable, okay?
Julia: Like that's different. It's like, it's like, what is it about this particular character and, and, and situation is making me uncomfortable? Like, it's okay to, to sit in that, right? Like you work through, it's part of the process. I struggle with people. Excuse me. This is how I want to say it. I struggle when people say things like, oh, it's just entertainment.
Julia: It means nothing. And you're just like, you know, okay. Yeah. That's not true, but okay. But I think push past that idea because then it does sort of help you. see the cracks in the structure and then we can actually start working towards, you know, better, more equitable system because it starts, it is not just entertainment.
Julia: It's like these things seep into other things. It seeps into policy. It seeps into, um, regulations. It seeks seeps into like medical care. Like the fact that ER had black doctors, Black actors playing doctors. Huge. Also, Grey's Anatomy. Huge. Like, that's major, right? Cause it's not just saying like, Oh, trust a black man as your doctor or a black woman as your doctor.
Julia: It's also saying to the, you know, teens watching the show, like, You can be a doctor. Like, you can be black and be a doctor. Like, that would be really cool. You don't just have to be a basketball player. Even, cause you know, you're 5'7 It's not gonna work.
Jenn: I love that example. Yes. Yes. And that is the big thing that I, I love that you touched on that of, uh, I feel like such a cliche saying it of like, this is overly used, but representation really does matter. As, as you just, as you just said, I know growing up TV got me out of some of the worst situations I had in my life.
Jenn: Um, some of my, my, one of my favorite shows was Aladdin. And like, to this day, I just wish I could look like Jasmine because that is the idea, ideal body type, ideal skin color. The ideal everything in my mind was Jasmine. And yet looking back at it, I related so much to Aladdin of, well, I want to get out. I want to go.
Jenn: And if I work hard enough, so it's like this duality. And When you don't have someone that looks like you or don't see a possibility of something, it can take that away of all there is, is what's in front of you. If that life isn't great. That can set a mindset for a lifetime.
Julia: Mm hmm. Which is a really good point because representation can either be helpful or harmful.
Julia: It can be the permission to become something bigger and greater that you didn't even consider you could be, or it's the reminder that you're not allowed to be anything but X.
Jenn: I think that's something that, um, I, I personally really hope that 2020 changed. I, I know for a lot of people that went to the protest and things like that, that I personally feel like a lot of people did it as a, it was the cool thing to do when they got out of their house. I hope that in the crowd where they were if they raised their hands and said, hands up, don't shoot as part as the, um, the protest that they felt the difference.
Jenn: Of what representation in TV shows us that there's such a difference and that
Jenn: TV makes it so much worse for specifically back men that, um, we're told that black women are just angry, you know like it takes away so many, so much people's worth. Wow. I'm not even trying to cry. Sorry, y'all. Apparently, I'm just going to cry on the show. It's cool. It just takes away somebody's worth in, as you were saying, their dynamic and how deep they are and how beautiful they are for being so different and putting, and I guess this is my big ask for, for those that are listening is trust yourself to get through the discomfort and know you're going to fuck up like y'all. I'll, I'll talk about this in the future,
Jenn: but I have complained to Black friends about reverse racism. This is not a thing. This is not a thing whatsoever. I just want to call that out a million times. It is really uncomfortable and really, like, cringey. Yet You're not going to teach your friends or your family unless you get out there and do something and we deserve to see art that is not art that a white person would make.
Jenn: The world deserves it. They deserve it. It is, brings in so much beauty and so much potential in the world and get uncomfortable.
Julia: Yeah. Here's what I have to say. I am Mixed, we established that 40 minutes ago. That does not mean that I have been spared internalized racism. That does not mean I have been spared from hating aspects of myself throughout my life because of the way that the world sees black people.
Julia: This has been a huge learning experience and will continue to be because we are finally getting into the weeds of things. It can feel like sometimes we're going, we're backtracking, which is a little frustrating with all the DEI people getting fired. With that said though, like I've grown so much since starting the show.
Julia: Like when I listen to old episodes, I'm like, Oh girl, who were you? Thanks for the growth. Because there's so much that is, has opened up for myself as well from looking at entertainment in that way. And I always kind of looked at entertainment in that way. But when I really sat down, I was like, well, what are critics saying that we should believe?
Julia: What are the people around me saying? What do my guests think about this property? And let's just sort of talk about it. And I, I can't. Who I was, I started the show in 21, who I was in 21 is not the same person who sits you before you today.
Jenn: And thank you for that. That is something that we all have moments of growth.
Jenn: And I like how you said, uh, thanking yourself, your past self for that moment of growth.
Julia: I'm not kidding. There's some old episodes where I'm just like, Oh my God, should I take this down? I'm so cringe. Like, why did I say that?
Jenn: And I have been there. I can, I can relate to that. And thank you for also showing how, at least looking back at our conversation, I'm seeing a lot of how things can be so similar, yet so extremely different without representation like the feelings are there, we can relate to something that doesn't look like us or act like us or feel like us yet.
Jenn: not experiencing it doesn't mean it's not real.
Julia: Yeah, that's, oh my gosh, a hundred percent. If there's anything that I'm always trying to remind people is just because my lived experience isn't your lived experience doesn't mean it's not real.
Jenn: Yes. Yes. And I, I'm curious. So what made you And I know you have your own show, so that, that is a good start, but like, what made you want to talk about this shit?
Julia: I just was getting really tired of, um, people raving about, like, Martin Scorsese and, uh, Steven Spielberg. You know, it just goes on and on. And I, you know, was the only one watching certain things. And then, um, and then it was like when you kind of got deeper with people about like, Oh, we all sort of have these cultural touchstones that we relate to, right?
Julia: Like, that's very true in the nineties. and earlier. Well, maybe 2010s and earlier. When streaming is introduced, it makes it harder for us to all have sort of this collective shared experience. Cause like you and I both saw Beef, but maybe like nobody else listening has seen Beef because it's on Netflix.
Julia: It's streaming. We can't all come together on Thursday night to watch it. Right? Like we don't have, we don't have, um, TGIF anymore on ABC every Friday we'd gather around and watch Full House and Family Matters and Step by Step and Sister Sister. Um, So it kind of started from the point of like, Oh, we both liked this show that was on Boy Meets World, for example, but then we grew so differently, even though we had the same early messages.
Julia: So that kind of started, you know, being really interesting to me, but then also just the way that my brother and I saw the world was so different from everybody else and trying to find cultural critics. in the main stage, right? Like there's publications that exist that don't have the same influence as like the New York Times or the Atlantic.
Julia: And it just kind of made me feel very uncomfortable with, you know, people, not that I'm saying someone with lived experience can't talk about, can't review Insecure or can't review American fiction. It just is so much more impactful when you have someone who understands the theme through a lived experience.
Julia: And I wasn't seeing that, and I wanted that, and I needed that. And I was having a hard time finding it.
Jenn: I love that you, uh, you created it. It's, it's something that has been so needed and all right. Few questions left. Okay. What are some words of wisdom that you have for your past self, for people listening, for?
Jenn: Your choice.
Julia: Yeah, I think what is sort of sitting in me right now in terms of words of wisdom is it's okay to not be who you were yesterday because I think a lot of times we really do. Um, yeah, we want to grow. Let's grow. We need to have growth, have a growth mindset. But then we look at our past and think, Oh God, I hope nobody holds that against me.
Julia: So we don't have a lot of grace for growth, even though we're so focused on growing. And I think if I'm okay with who I was yesterday, knowing that I need to grow from that and be better. That's okay. It's okay for me to be a little different from who I was yesterday.
Jenn: Thank you. And how do people reach out to you?
Julia: There is no shortage of me on the internet. That is for sure. I am on Instagram and TikTok, the Julia Washington, and I have a website. Oh, I actually have two websites. I have juliawashingtonproductions.com. It's got all. My artwork and all the things that I do to keep my hands busy, so I'm not self-destructive or destroying other people.
Julia: And I have popculturemakesmejealous.com, which is where you can listen to the website or listen to the website, listen to the podcast. It's on all podcast players, but for folks who are like, I don't want to download a podcast player. I only want to listen to that one episode they were talking about today on shit we need to talk about.
Julia: You can do it on the website. Um, and you mentioned Aladdin. So I have to do a plug. We did an episode about Aladdin and it was. Very, very good. My guest brought a lot to that conversation and it's definitely one worth looking into.
Jenn: And that'll be linked in the episode notes. So all right. Last question of the day.
Jenn: What is something you're grateful for?
Julia: I am, um, grateful that my hands still work. I know that sounds weird, but you know, I have a lot of friends who have been artists for years and years and years and having to have surgeries and stuff because of that finer motor skill. And I was thinking yesterday, gosh, I'm just so grateful that I haven't had anything tragic happen and I can still do what I love.
Julia: So bad.
Jenn: No, it's, it's, it, it is something to be grateful for. I think a lot of us take that, that for granted. You don't, you don't always remember. And I would say,
Julia: You know what, can I also add? Yes. I'm also very grateful for the community that I'm in. I spend a lot of times hating this community, hating living here, feeling very isolated, feeling very, Um, misunderstood and I've made the decision to actively engage with my community again in the way that works for me and they haven't disappointed.
Julia: It's been amazing.
Jenn: Yay. I'm glad to hear that. I would say, uh, I'm grateful for people like you that a, just are helping people dig deeper and understand things, but also that push me to have deeper conversations. And. They're not always easy, but they're definitely worth it.
Julia: For sure. Yeah, thank you for having me on and being willing to engage in this chat.
Jenn: Thank you for joining Shit You Don't Want to Talk About. I'm here to get the conversation started. It's your turn to continue the conversation. Don't know where to start? Here are a few ways. Rate and review the show. Send this episode to someone. And let us know on social media what shit you want to talk about.
Jenn: Bye.
